Initial evidence

[Tithesmeister]

Esaias,

The miracle (or perhaps sign) of each person or nationality hearing in their own language does not appear to be repeated. So why do you think it wasn’t?

And would this suggest that those speaking in tongues were in fact prophesying to these Jews in some manner that they understood?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Esaias,

The miracle (or perhaps sign) of each person or nationality hearing in their own language does not appear to be repeated. So why do you think it wasn’t?

En masse? Perhaps not. But I know of a case where this is likely what happened. An evangelist was praying in tongues and a group of foreigners heard him in their own native language. He himself had no cognizance of praying in their language, they told him he was.

Also, no visions of tongues of fire or sounds like rushing mighty winds seem to be repeated either. What IS repeated is "speaking with other tongues".

And would this suggest that those speaking in tongues were in fact prophesying to these Jews in some manner that they understood?

They were HEARD in a multiplicity of native dialects, even though everybody in the event spoke and understood Greek and likely Hebrew/Aramaic.

[Esaias]

It was (and is) a Jewish belief that on Pentecost not only did God speak the Law at Sinai to Israel, but also spake it in 70 languages (of all nations). The events in Acts 2 seem to be related to that Jewish belief in some way.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

En masse? Perhaps not. But I know of a case where this is likely what happened. An evangelist was praying in tongues and a group of foreigners heard him in their own native language. He himself had no cognizance of praying in their language, they told him he was.

Also, no visions of tongues of fire or sounds like rushing mighty winds seem to be repeated either. What IS repeated is "speaking with other tongues".



They were HEARD in a multiplicity of native dialects, even though everybody in the event spoke and understood Greek and likely Hebrew/Aramaic.

I have heard of that happening as well. I think it is supposed to have happened at Azusa Street if I recall correctly. And I read in Benjamin Urshan’s biography where he saw tongues like as of fire setting on his family and friends when his brother was reading scripture and singing hymns. I have also heard of fire being on another individual. But, the truth be told, I’m not sure that it happened. And I’m not sure that it didn’t.

But the passage in Hebrews 2 refers to signs and miracles, presumably in the context of God verifying the gospel. So why wouldn’t the hearers understanding the tongues qualify as a miracle and a sign that verifies the gospel message.

On second thought I believe that the fire on Azusa Street was on the building. Allegedly.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

But the passage in Hebrews 2 refers to signs and miracles, presumably in the context of God verifying the gospel. So why wouldn’t the hearers understanding the tongues qualify as a miracle and a sign that verifies the gospel message.

I absolutely believe the hearers understanding the tongues was a miracle and a sign verifying the Gospel. In fact, I cannot understand the text in Acts 2 any other way, as it describes a natural impossibility. So it must be a miracle, which got people's attention to hear the Gospel and served as evidence of the miraculous and divine source of that Gospel.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I absolutely believe the hearers understanding the tongues was a miracle and a sign verifying the Gospel. In fact, I cannot understand the text in Acts 2 any other way, as it describes a natural impossibility. So it must be a miracle, which got people's attention to hear the Gospel and served as evidence of the miraculous and divine source of that Gospel.

I agree. Don’t be shocked.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I agree. Don’t be shocked.

I'm not shocked that you agree with me.

I AM shocked about the things you DON'T agree with me on, though.

[Amanah]

I messaged my Elder on the subject of initial evidence, like maybe a week ago. Sent him Esaias' write up. He said he'd get back to me. Yesterday in church he told me he hasn't had time to look into it yet, and he would need to talk to the Bishop about it.

So, I posted Esaias' write up on Facebook and prayed that God would use the post to touch people. People are liking the post, for whatever that's worth. We'll see what happens. Either way, I've taken a stand for what I believe is correct without actually confronting people.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I messaged my Elder on the subject of initial evidence, like maybe a week ago.

When faced with material as in articles, tapes, YouTubes, books, and other items slipped in my hand. I try my best to get through the material. I try to get to everyone's request. Knowing that to everyone's answer is seriously important to them. Me telling them the next time we meet that I didn't get to it, or hadn't the time can cause an irreversible issue. One that may pop up at an inopportune time?

Originally Posted by Amanah

Sent him Esaias' write up. He said he'd get back to me. Yesterday in church he told me he hasn't had time to look into it yet, and he would need to talk to the Bishop about it.

While I do share with the other elders, first things first. I need to look through what I was handed. Ministers are big boys, and are fully able to shuck the corn on their own. If the document or book is all in cuneiform, then I'll have to find a brother to help me out. Yet, I'm able to fly solo if I have to. Still I understand brethren having a lot on their plate. Or feeling apprehensive on subjects they see as challenging. I have learned over the years, to walk slow and drink a lot of water. There isn't a rush to enlighten the ministry. Especially brothers and sisters I've been with for a long time. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth. Guiding us into all Truth. I need to not get in the way of the Spirit, by jumping the gun. I've watched a lot of good people get confused and bewildered over a challenging subject, they weren't ready or able to see. For an elder, it can be embarrassing to be put on the spot. Some people are sincere, and want answers. I've found if that's the case they have godly patients. They are willing to wait for the elders, and ministers to get them an answer. But, that answer shouldn't take an undo amount of time. Still there are those who are trouble makers, or trying to stump the preacher. Those don't wait. They sometimes climb on the soap box in the middle of a service, or at a Bible study. Yet, truly but painfully those situations come about after ignoring them.

Originally Posted by Amanah

So, I posted Esaias' write up on Facebook and prayed that God would use the post to touch people. People are liking the post, for whatever that's worth. We'll see what happens. Either way, I've taken a stand for what I believe is correct without actually confronting people.

I look at it this way. If you are leaving and post something on their page, it's just a Parthian shot. An evangelist getting up on a pulpit and bringing forward his revelation on a particular teaching. Or thinking he will drop a seed among the saints. Must remember this rule. The people he just dropped his "thus saith the evangelist" on, are only hearing his voice maybe for a night? At best a week? Their pastor, an elders have their attention for as long as they attend the congregation. It's a tough deal, and I know we feel we are right. That we hold the keys to the Kingdom. I have seen situations like this turn out being a full blown stench fest. Also, I've seen great discussions come forward. But, I've also seen these situations go dead cold after the smoke clears. No matter what it's all in God's hands. There is a lot to be said about just leaving and moving on. I do mean a lot to be said. It is as multifaceted as a diamond.

[coksiw]

So, they were all in the upper room, a private environment. The Spirit fell and began to speak in tongues.

What exactly you think it could have happened regarding how people noticed and then began to understand?

The assumption being made in this thread is that there is a loud mix of voices saying different things, and people outside were listening simultaneously and understanding simultaneously, which is hard to understand since such a thing would turn into a large blurry incomprehensible noise.

But this is what I find more probably, and less of need for the hypothesis that the listeners' ears were opened to understand it in their language.

The upper room got noisy. Have you heard a noisy party before not by the loud music but by the people inside talking loud?

A small group of curious people came close to the building, ... as they come closer to the ones speaking in tongues, they can distinguish their native language, while Peter is there also seeing the small group and listening to their conversation. The word spreads, more people come, they get through the crowd to the front and listen to the prayers closer and then go towards the back as they make comments about what they hear. All this happens while Peter is listening to the front of the crowd's comments as well. If Peter is listening is not that they are so into the prayers taken over by the Spirit that they are not having the chance to stop at times, and see and listen to the front of the curious crowd. Then, Peter starts his famous speech saying "these are not drunk"

Haven't you seen something like this happening before for other curious incidents where the crowd slowly grows, they come to the front to see it, and then stay or go to the back and exchange comments and have a laugh too? That's exactly how it happens.

It is likely not the case that 3000+ came at the same time, listened the mixed voices, listened to Peter, and all 3000 repented at the same time. It was likely a many hours process of people in/out, sharing their comments, testifying what they saw, spreading the word, etc... What you get in Acts then are just summary of the events, instead of less significant details. Perhaps only 500 to 1000 people heard Peter's initial speech, perhaps even less. The 3000 people being converted is said after it is also added that Peter preached more:

[Acts 2:40-41 KJV] 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day (this is a open enough statement to allow for a lengthy process of spreading words for hours) there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.