No Limits Conference Speakers?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

But you are discounting the event by implying that she's "disgruntled" and somehow that explains everything and lets her abusers off the hook. I have talked w/people from that church and they confirmed the facts of what happened.

Am I the only one that has noticed how the reactions to my posts have been to find ways to blame me and the people that got hurt instead of holding the people accountable who did and continue to do these things?

Why is it that little people get in all sorts of trouble for doing minor things wrong but the 'important' people are allowed to get away with major things without accountability? It reminds me of the scripture about priests that piled huge loads on people (like overloaded donkies) but they themselves refuse to carry the same moral load.

Her story is true. What do we do with it? Ignore it?

Your points are all taken. We've heard reports of abuse by those in leadership before and I believe they happen. Look up posts by Sarge. She runs the spiritual abuse forum you gave a link to.

Don't you think it's wise to hear both sides to a story?

And while you're dishing the faults of others, how about telling us all about your past mistakes, sins, overzealous errors, etc.

Do we "ignore it"? Well, God doesn't. He knows it all and will sort all these things out. God exposed David's sin to the nation.

I've been out of the UPC for over 15 years until recently and I don't know any of the people you are talking about personally.

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Your points are all taken. We've heard reports of abuse by those in leadership before and I believe they happen. Look up posts by Sarge. She runs the spiritual abuse forum you gave a link to.

Don't you think it's wise to hear both sides to a story?

And while you're dishing the faults of others, how about telling us all about your past mistakes, sins, overzealous errors, etc.

Do we "ignore it"? Well, God doesn't. He knows it all and will sort all these things out. God exposed David's sin to the nation.

I've been out of the UPC for over 15 years until recently and I don't know any of the people you are talking about personally.

I appreciate the response Miz. You seem like a reasonable guy and I look forward to talking w/you about that other stuff we were talking about in another thread.

I did say that I tried to get both sides of the story regarding my friend and the other side confirmed what happened. Regarding the other incidents I was there personally and saw and heard it for myself so I'm not sure I need to hear the lady explain that she told a new convert that pants were associated with whores and then made no effort or even seemed unconcerned the person was so distraught. She never asked me about it later either btw. It goes to the core of the problem, a hard spirit.

I love Sarge. Sarge and her ministry saved me when I left the UPC.

Yes, i've been guilty of this. I like so many others did it unknowingly and with the best of intentions. But, once I saw it for what it was I repented and stopped doing it. I stopped teaching the classes and I then later resigned and left so as not to associate myself with it. And now I speak out against it. As my friend told me about how her gay friend was treated I had to apologize to her and to God for all the times I laughed at Charles Mahaney, et al when he'd bash 'fags' and 'queers' every time he preached at CLC with the full knowledge of the pastor who I can only assume didn't mind it since he invited CM back at least once or twice a year. The only reason I name names is because it stops the tendency of people that want to deny the issue to relegate it to some stupid hick from the sticks somewhere in hill billy land. Obviously the problem is much more ingrained in the org culture than that considering the people I've seen who do it and continue to do it.

We cannot ignore it and "let God sort it out". Paul didn't do that in Galatians and other places. When Peter tried to do it Paul called him on the carpet in front of everybody. Until enough people start speaking up and holding their leaders accountable for their actions then we have only ourselves to blame for our problems and we'll be held accountable on the day of the Lord for the children of God that we've hurt. Jesus said we may as well tie a big rock around our neck and jump in a big lake if we hurt his innocent children. Christ takes this stuff very seriously.

[Raven]

SweetPea!

You are to be commended on your loyalty. I like the way you have clarified certain situations. I have connections enough to say you are telling it like it is. I might not always be in agreement with the way things may be going but when the story is told I want it to be true whether it goes my way or not. NH is to be commended for his dedication and sacrifice but again the truth be told ... he has never worked without a net! I can't fault him for that because I haven't either.
Raven

[Barb]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

But you are discounting the event by implying that she's "disgruntled" and somehow that explains everything and lets her abusers off the hook. I have talked w/people from that church and they confirmed the facts of what happened.

Am I the only one that has noticed how the reactions to my posts have been to find ways to blame me and the people that got hurt instead of holding the people accountable who did and continue to do these things?

Why is it that little people get in all sorts of trouble for doing minor things wrong but the 'important' people are allowed to get away with major things without accountability? It reminds me of the scripture about priests that piled huge loads on people (like overloaded donkies) but they themselves refuse to carry the same moral load.

Her story is true. What do we do with it? Ignore it?

AS I said...I don't know the full facts, but stand by my statement that people can say about anything when they FEEL they have been hurt...whatever the reasons.

Am I taking Bishop's side?! Don't know the story to do that.

I am saying there is more than one way to look at an issue.

Am I defending him if he has erred?! Would not do that for a second, but I will not trash a bishop either.

Furthermore, I do NOT believe in so-called important people getting breaks when others do not, but fortunately I am not the issuer of such pronounced judgment.

Ecclesiastes 8:11 states, Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

People think they are getting by, but one day...regardless of who it is or the situation, one day the sentence will be handed out, but it won't be by the great and not so great minds here...and for the record, I fall into the latter group.

Also for the record, I was NOT blaming you or the woman by my posting...you are too sensitive.

[staysharp]

I lived in Stockton for five years during the early 80's. I hung out with NH and Sherry. We had some good times. While I don't agree with UPCI, I find no value in exposing faults of others. Love covers and we should not be too quick to accuse. I still have friends at CLC and they seem happy. That's all that matters.

I realized there is spiritual abuse and gestapo tactics, but people are free to move on and find a church they are comfortable attending. My prayer for those who are in pain is they would find the emotional strength to move and find a church that will heal their broken spirits.

[A_PoMo]

Well, I guess it's obvious that I couldn't disagree w/ya'll more. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't want to contend for my views to the disunity of the group. I give specific examples of long term patterns of behavior and I'm "trashing a bishop". I'm sorry, but that people seem happy isn't all that matters. Righteousness and justice are what matter to God. This is the dominant theme from Exodus 34 through the new covenant. While in the UPC I heard alot of talk about accountability. But it seems that the level of accountability gets less and less with the more power and influence you gain. The bigger you get the more people bow and scrape and the more you know you can get away with. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is tragic that the people that have the greatest opportunity to do the most damage seem to have the least amount of accountability and are given the most latitude in wreaking havoc on people's lives. This is a systemic problem in the UPC (and evidently in the WPF based on NW's sermon as the titular leader of the new org) and it's slowly strangling the UPC in my view as it worms its way deeper and deeper into the fabric of the ethos. And it all starts (going back to the original point of this whole series of posts) with bad theology. There is an inbalanced view of respect for leadership, loyalty, accountability, church discipline, and the role and authority of pastors that over time leads us further and further away from truth and into more and more negative consequences for people and for the org. It can be stopped if people will say "enough is enough." However, evil triumphs when good men do nothing. We would NEVER stand idly by and watch a parent verbally and emotionally abuse a child. We won't even do that to dogs. But we do it all the time in our churches and I want to know why that's ok. I was talking to a preacher not long ago who is a high official in the UPC and who has been licensed w/the UPC for nearly 50 years. He told me that the UPC has changed over the last twenty years or so. He said that if he were starting over today and looking for an org that he'd not join the UPC and he'd discourage anyone from joining. He made the comment that its one of the only orgs he knows that kills its wounded almost as a matter of policy. One of his sons is in the UPC and this man has given him his blessing to leave. His reasoning has nothing to do w/the the WPF or lib vs.con or anything like that. He just recognizes the sickness in the UPC in this regard and based his opinion on principle. I thought that was pretty telling for one of its most loyal ministers to say something like that. As odd as it may sound, I love the UPC and its leadership. I want it thrive and I wish I could come back. So I guess I'll just leave it at that.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

Well, I guess it's obvious that I couldn't disagree w/ya'll more. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't want to contend for my views to the disunity of the group. I give specific examples of long term patterns of behavior and I'm "trashing a bishop". I'm sorry, but that people seem happy isn't all that matters. Righteousness and justice are what matter to God. This is the dominant theme from Exodus 34 through the new covenant. While in the UPC I heard alot of talk about accountability. But it seems that the level of accountability gets less and less with the more power and influence you gain. The bigger you get the more people bow and scrape and the more you know you can get away with. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is tragic that the people that have the greatest opportunity to do the most damage seem to have the least amount of accountability and are given the most latitude in wreaking havoc on people's lives. This is a systemic problem in the UPC (and evidently in the WPF based on NW's sermon as the titular leader of the new org) and it's slowly strangling the UPC in my view as it worms its way deeper and deeper into the fabric of the ethos. And it all starts (going back to the original point of this whole series of posts) with bad theology. There is an inbalanced view of respect for leadership, loyalty, accountability, church discipline, and the role and authority of pastors that over time leads us further and further away from truth and into more and more negative consequences for people and for the org. It can be stopped if people will say "enough is enough." However, evil triumphs when good men do nothing. We would NEVER stand idly by and watch a parent verbally and emotionally abuse a child. We won't even do that to dogs. But we do it all the time in our churches and I want to know why that's ok. I was talking to a preacher not long ago who is a high official in the UPC and who has been licensed w/the UPC for nearly 50 years. He told me that the UPC has changed over the last twenty years or so. He said that if he were starting over today and looking for an org that he'd not join the UPC and he'd discourage anyone from joining. He made the comment that its one of the only orgs he knows that kills its wounded almost as a matter of policy. One of his sons is in the UPC and this man has given him his blessing to leave. I thought that was pretty telling for one of its most loyal ministers to say something like that. As odd as it may sound, I love the UPC and its leadership. I want it thrive and I wish I could come back. So I guess I'll just leave it at that.

LOL!! My brother...on some things people do have to agree to disagree.

But please...please do not put words in my mouth.

I did NOT accuse you of ANYTHING...least of all of trashing a bishop. I find it odd that you picked up on that and seemed to miss everything I wrote...oh well...

I was speaking of myself, saying that I would not trash a bishop...period. Do NOT infer...please.

As I am not making myself clear here, and stand in danger once again of upseting the brethren as it pertains to Bishop W, I will bow out.

But understand that I am ALL for accountability...trust me...you have NO idea!!

I do not believe in letting errring people continue on in their junk, but as layperson's, what do you suggest...that we throw ourselves in front of the pulpit and bar folks from ministry?!

I am not in favor, and never have been, of this kind of thing, especially on a public forum.

There are things Bishop has said which I flat out do not agree with...I think the WPF was a mistake...a big one. But I am very careful of what I will say about an elder here or anywhere.

I am not policing you...I'm talking about me!!

There are injustices and abuses of power, and it happens everywhere. For anyone to not think it can happen in God's Church is dumb.

With this I believe we can agree...

[A_PoMo]

I apologize for misunderstanding your 'trash a bishop' thing. It appeared to me that you were implying that I am "trashing" people. Yes, I am kinda sensitive and a little defensive because I don't take any pleasure in bringing this stuff up and I know that it causes some people to have negative opinions of me for bringing it up. But I've seen enough damage done by this kind of thing that I in good conscience cannot let it slide and thus I speak of what I have experienced and seen. I'm not sure why this sort of forum isn't a good place to discuss these things. I could offer many things people could do to at least try to limit this sort of stuff from happening. However, the most effective thing that can happen is for the leaders themselves to police this sort of thing. I think this is one of the benefits of an org. But I think it's an area that has generally been ignored in the UPC while inordinate attention has been given to other minor things. Swallowing camels and straining gnats. The chances of this happening, imo, are about as likely as comprehensive campaign finance reform though. haha. It would take extraordinary courage and tenacity for a man to stand up against the system in a conference setting and to influence cultural change of this sort. And it would have to be a man who is not guilty of doing this sort of thing as a matter of course. I believe that if such a man were to stand up that many would lend their voices to his and then perhaps something good could happen. Until then us little people can keep spitting in the wind and hope something sticks from time to time.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

I apologize for misunderstanding your 'trash a bishop' thing. It appeared that you were implying that I am "trashing" people. Yes, I am kinda sensitive because I don't take any pleasure in bringing this stuff up and I know that it causes some people to have negative opinions of me for bringing it up. But I've seen enough damage done by this kind of thing that I in good conscience cannot let it slide and thus I speak of what I have experienced and seen. I'm not sure why this sort of forum isn't a good place to discuss these things. I could offer many things people could do to at least try to limit this sort of stuff from happening. However, the most effective thing that can happen is for the leaders themselves to police this sort of thing. I think this is one of the benefits of an org. But I think it's an area that has generally been ignored in the UPC while inordinate attention has been given to other minor things. Swallowing camels and straining gnats. The chances of this happening, imo, are about as likely as campaign finance reform though. haha. It would take extraordinary courage and tenacity for a man to stand up against the system in a conference setting and to influence cultural change of this sort. And it would have to be a man who is not guilty of doing this sort of thing as a matter of course. I believe that if such a man were to stand up that many would lend their voices to his and then perhaps something good could happen. Until then us little people can keep spitting in the wind and hope something sticks from time to time.

Thank you for this...and I agree.

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by Barb

Thank you for this...and I agree.

PTL! {AP falling on the floor in amazement that somebody actually agrees w/him about something }

To add to the above remarks, I have to wonder too how this sort of thing has hindered 'revival'? I wonder if we were to focus on making our churches safer places to be and would focus on being for things more than we're against things that maybe we'd grow more as we'd perhaps stem the flow of people going out the backdoor as fast as they come in the front. (A problem that frustrated me as the new converts pastor at CLC and one I understand is common in other churches as well, especially larger ones.) I wonder if maybe it would be better for the evangelistic goals of the UPC in the long run if they'd focus on these issue. We're supposed to be a place of safety and healing and I think that if we truly are proactive in making this happen and become allergic to abuse that the result will be growth. Just my opinion. And the opinion of my pastor who has made this idea one of the stated values of our church and the results have been astounding.

Hey, I love everybody on here. I hope that you guys realize that my motivation here is not a personal vendetta against anybody but a desire to see the UPC thrive and for the kingdom to grow and actually accomplish its mission in history.