The Difference Between the PCI of the Merger and the Current Counterfeits

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Do a study on mockers in the Scripture, Sir.

Your arguments are about as empty as your attempts at wit.

Your scorn and contempt for the Apostolic Church is as clear as can be.

I am quickly losing interest in discussing anything with you.

Do a study on those who persecute the Church ... your scorn and contempt for the entire body is as clear as can be. I enjoy discussing anything with you because it's so predictable.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

No.

I am saying you can't stop partway and expect to receive the full benefit of God's provision.

so you are saying you are saved by your priestly works????

[SDG]

A good study of Hebrews will show you that Christ performed all those priestly functions you seek to re-enact.

[OneAccord]

Oh well, so much for Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:3. So much for "We shall endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit until we all come into the unity of the faith, at the same time admonishing all brethren that they should not contend for their different views to the disunity of the body." You know, I'm thankful for the liberty I have in Christ. I'm thankful that His truth set me free, and that I am free to follow Him, and am able to believe what His Word, without having to ensure that I am conforming with manuals, affirmation statements and creeds that do nothing more than add to His Word and keep people divided. I don't have to hold to the PCI view, or the UPC view, but am free to hold to the only view that really matters.... thats the Bible view. The truth is, I never knew what the PCI view was. Never knew what the PAJC view was, not until I joined internet forums and began to realize just how Apostolic Christians are really divided. I never knew such division, such confusion really existed among people who claim to have the full truth.

So what do I believe in regards to repentance? I believe exactly what the UPC states thgey believe. In the Articles of Faith, it says "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, amd the Apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30). The word "repentance" means a change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, transformation, etc. Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3). Luke 24:47 says "And repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His Name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem".

And, yes, I agree with what the Articles of Faith has to say about water baptism as well, but the point is this: The UPC doesn't really believe what their Articles of Faith says about repentance. They don't hold to the view that "forgiveness of sins" is wrought at "repentance". Forgivess of sins is not achieved until one is baptized in water "by a duly authorized minister of the gospel... in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ...", according to the UPC view. So, who's confused now? They SAY forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, but they also say forgiveness of sins is at water baptism. I have no beef with the UPC view, as confusing as it seems to be, but its troubling to see a minister of the Gospel, whose duty it is to promote and encourage Unity in the Body of Christ, refer to people who hold a differing view as "Pathetic Compromising Ingrates". Its troubling to see one who should be working to bring people together, causing even more division and disharmony among the brethren. Its troubling to see one who should be busy "sowing the seed of the Gospel, but is rather intent on "sowing discord among the brethren".

I love the message pf the New Birth. What I won't do, is allow myself to be ensnared, entangled again with the yoke of bondage that has no basis in the Word of God. I won't allow some manual or affirmation statement dictate to me what I am to believe and how I am to live. I will get guidance from God's Word and not from some David Bernard book. Nor will I be the "parrot" of some doctrine that isn't even found in the Articles of faith of the organization I claim to be a part of. I'll just follow Christ... and not some District Superintendent with the aspiring hopes that I will, one day, reach the pinnacle of my organization so I can be in position to decide who will, and who will not be saved.

And thats MY opinion.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Barb,

With all respect, they are thicker than hair on a dog's back.

Faith + nothing=salvation.

They don't like to identify themselves as such usually, but when you pin them down, that is what it amounts to.

As deeply as it pains you to acknowledge it, there are some folks who are wrong in their doctrine.

With utmost respect to you, Elder, I repeat that I know no one who is 'faith only'...

I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just saying that I don't know them.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Oh well, so much for Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:3. So much for "We shall endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit until we all come into the unity of the faith, at the same time admonishing all brethren that they should not contend for their different views to the disunity of the body." You know, I'm thankful for the liberty I have in Christ. I'm thankful that His truth set me free, and that I am free to follow Him, and am able to believe what His Word, without having to ensure that I am conforming with manuals, affirmation statements and creeds that do nothing more than add to His Word and keep people divided. I don't have to hold to the PCI view, or the UPC view, but am free to hold to the only view that really matters.... thats the Bible view. The truth is, I never knew what the PCI view was. Never knew what the PAJC view was, not until I joined internet forums and began to realize just how Apostolic Christians are really divided. I never knew such division, such confusion really existed among people who claim to have the full truth.

So what do I believe in regards to repentance? I believe exactly what the UPC states thgey believe. In the Articles of Faith, it says "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, amd the Apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30). The word "repentance" means a change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, transformation, etc. Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3). Luke 24:47 says "And repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His Name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem".

And, yes, I agree with what the Articles of Faith has to say about water baptism as well, but the point is this: The UPC doesn't really believe what their Articles of Faith says about repentance. They don't hold to the view that "forgiveness of sins" is wrought at "repentance". Forgivess of sins is not achieved until one is baptized in water "by a duly authorized minister of the gospel... in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ...", according to the UPC view. So, who's confused now? They SAY forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, but they also say forgiveness of sins is at water baptism. I have no beef with the UPC view, as confusing as it seems to be, but its troubling to see a minister of the Gospel, whose duty it is to promote and encourage Unity in the Body of Christ, refer to people who hold a differing view as "Pathetic Compromising Ingrates". Its troubling to see one who should be working to bring people together, causing even more division and disharmony among the brethren. Its troubling to see one who should be busy "sowing the seed of the Gospel, but is rather intent on "sowing discord among the brethren".

I love the message pf the New Birth. What I won't do, is allow myself to be ensnared, entangled again with the yoke of bondage that has no basis in the Word of God. I won't allow some manual or affirmation statement dictate to me what I am to believe and how I am to live. I will get guidance from God's Word and not from some David Bernard book. Nor will I be the "parrot" of some doctrine that isn't even found in the Articles of faith of the organization I claim to be a part of. I'll just follow Christ... and not some District Superintendent with the aspiring hopes that I will, one day, reach the pinnacle of my organization so I can be in position to decide who will, and who will not be saved.

And thats MY opinion.

Those same articles under Water baptism do not mention remission of sins .... and in the Fundamental Doctrine clause as it reads ... repentance does not bring remission ... only water baptism does. It's no wonder folks are confused on how to present sound doctrine.
_________________________________

From a symposium of Daniel Seagraves, President of CLC:

The Articles of Faith of the United Pentecostal Church International, under the heading "Repentance and Conversion," presently reads: "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins:1

The context concerns conversion, not the obtaining of forgiveness by a born-again believer, says nothing about water baptism, and would lead one to believe that repentance alone is sufficient to produce forgiveness of sins.2

A study of the Greek text would indicate that "forgiveness" and "remission" are synonyms, since in the King James Version both words are translated from the same Greek word, aphesis.3

Does the assertion that, on the one hand, forgiveness is obtained by repentance alone and, on the other hand, remission of sins is obtained by baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ present a contradiction in the Articles of Faith of the U.P.C.I.?

Should there be an examination of the somewhat popular teaching that sins are forgiven at repentance but are not remitted until water baptism?

The Articles of Faith offer no Scripture to support the statement that "pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance."

While the author thoroughly examined the relationship of both repentance and water baptism as they relate to remission of sins in the text of Acts 2:38, he did not discuss the fact that the Fundamental Doctrine of the U.PC.I. does not necessarily endorse this idea.

The Fundamental Doctrine reads, "The basic and fundamental doctrine of this organization shall be the Bible standard of full salvation, which is repentance, baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. ..:'4 The grammatical construction of the Fundamental Doctrine would indicate that the remission of sins is effected by the water baptism alone, rather than by repentance and water baptism coupled together, since repentance and water baptism are not joined by the conjunction "and" but. are instead separated by a comma.

Neither did the author discuss the significance of the word "full" in the Fundamental Doctrine. ("The basic and fundamental doctrine of this organization shall be the Bible standard of full salvation...:') At the merging conference, "a motion was made to take the word `full' out of the Fundamental Doctrine, but was defeated:'5 The significance of this is obvious. Without this word, the Fundamental Doctrine would have read, "The basic and fundamental doctrine of this organization shall be the Bible standard of salvation. ..:' The word full is an adjective which modifies the noun salvation.

While it may be difficult for those who were not present to understand or appreciate the importance of this word to those involved in the merger, it obviously suggests that the majority present and voting viewed "full salvation" as one thing and "salvation" as another. A discussion of this element of U.PC.I. history would be a worthy subject for a subsequent symposium.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Barb

With utmost respect to you, Elder, I repeat that I know no one who is 'faith only'...

I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just saying that I don't know them.

Neither do I.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Oh well, so much for Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:3. So much for "We shall endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit until we all come into the unity of the faith, at the same time admonishing all brethren that they should not contend for their different views to the disunity of the body." You know, I'm thankful for the liberty I have in Christ. I'm thankful that His truth set me free, and that I am free to follow Him, and am able to believe what His Word, without having to ensure that I am conforming with manuals, affirmation statements and creeds that do nothing more than add to His Word and keep people divided. I don't have to hold to the PCI view, or the UPC view, but am free to hold to the only view that really matters.... thats the Bible view. The truth is, I never knew what the PCI view was. Never knew what the PAJC view was, not until I joined internet forums and began to realize just how Apostolic Christians are really divided. I never knew such division, such confusion really existed among people who claim to have the full truth.

So what do I believe in regards to repentance? I believe exactly what the UPC states thgey believe. In the Articles of Faith, it says "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:1). John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, amd the Apostles emphasized it to both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30). The word "repentance" means a change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, transformation, etc. Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3). Luke 24:47 says "And repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His Name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem".

And, yes, I agree with what the Articles of Faith has to say about water baptism as well, but the point is this: The UPC doesn't really believe what their Articles of Faith says about repentance. They don't hold to the view that "forgiveness of sins" is wrought at "repentance". Forgivess of sins is not achieved until one is baptized in water "by a duly authorized minister of the gospel... in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ...", according to the UPC view. So, who's confused now? They SAY forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, but they also say forgiveness of sins is at water baptism. I have no beef with the UPC view, as confusing as it seems to be, but its troubling to see a minister of the Gospel, whose duty it is to promote and encourage Unity in the Body of Christ, refer to people who hold a differing view as "Pathetic Compromising Ingrates". Its troubling to see one who should be working to bring people together, causing even more division and disharmony among the brethren. Its troubling to see one who should be busy "sowing the seed of the Gospel, but is rather intent on "sowing discord among the brethren".

I love the message pf the New Birth. What I won't do, is allow myself to be ensnared, entangled again with the yoke of bondage that has no basis in the Word of God. I won't allow some manual or affirmation statement dictate to me what I am to believe and how I am to live. I will get guidance from God's Word and not from some David Bernard book. Nor will I be the "parrot" of some doctrine that isn't even found in the Articles of faith of the organization I claim to be a part of. I'll just follow Christ... and not some District Superintendent with the aspiring hopes that I will, one day, reach the pinnacle of my organization so I can be in position to decide who will, and who will not be saved.

And thats MY opinion.

I beg to differ OneAccord...that's MY Opinoin

[freeatlast]

The early Apostolic church never ever said tongues was the evidence of a persons salvation.

I think many here have a differing opinoin of who the REAL Counterfeit's are.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

The early Apostolic church never ever said tongues was the evidence of a persons salvation.

I think many here have a differing opinoin of who the REAL Counterfeit's are.

Would you agree that many modern Apostolic churches have made it so ...?
Tongues are a sign for the unbeliever ...

Click here to read Jason Dulle on the subject