The UPCI Needs a Healer

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Felicity

The issue isn't always the issue. (Have I mentioned that before? LOL. )

But ..... there are lines of demarcation for us all and a point at which we say, "enough". For many, that line was crossed with the voting in of Res. 4 I guess.

The thing is ..... I look at these groups that splintered away from UPC and none of them in my opinion come close to offering what the UPCI does. The rich tapestry of history, tradition, men and women who are and have been heroes to many of us, the support, talent, giftings, abilities, ministries, passion, preaching, depth and stability aren't matched in the splinter off groups. .

Some might say you don't need all of that and maybe you don't, but to me there is great loss suffered in leaving the known for the unknown ....... not to mention the strain on and possible severing of relationships that often takes place as a result.

IMO

The effect on churches, the effect on family, the effect on individuals themselves as a result of placing themselves outside the framework of what defined them and their life possibly since they were born can take a huge toll, in more ways than one.

In my experience any advantage is far outweighed by disadvantage and loss.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Felicity

The effect on churches, the effect on family, the effect on individuals themselves as a result of placing themselves outside the framework of what defined them and their life possibly since they were born can take a huge toll, in more ways than one.

In my experience any advantage is far outweighed by disadvantage and loss.

Yup. Pastor Hardwick has just been a broken man these past 20 years or so since leaving the UPC.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Excellent point, one not thought of by many, including myself.

There are two ways to look at this, in my opinon:

1.) Either the departing can say, "The missionary is doing a great work and should not be punished by this decision, I'll continue to support".

2.) Or, "The missionary is now a part of a compromising organization, and by supporting them, I am supporting compromise, so my ethics will not allow me to continue to support the missionary unless he/she leaves the organization, as well"

It will be interesting to see which order of logic takes precedence.

One other reason a church might find it necessary to cut back on support is because they have less finances available. It's difficult for me to believe that these churches will be unaffected by leaving the UPC. Usually there is a certain percent of any congregation that simply want to remain in the organization even though the pastor left. Are saints in the USA that loyal that they will simply follow the pastor out of the UPC?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

One other reason a church might find it necessary to cut back on support is because they have less finances available. It's difficult for me to believe that these churches will be unaffected by leaving the UPC. Usually there is a certain percent of any congregation that simply want to remain in the organization even though the pastor left. Are saints in the USA that loyal that they will simply follow the pastor out of the UPC?

Most of these congregations have been somewhat sheltered from many UPC functions or only attended in a limited way. I don't see much effect leaving the UPC will have on these churches. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by CC1

Yup. Pastor Hardwick has just been a broken man these past 20 years or so since leaving the UPC.

I expected that kind of comment would be made by somebody. LOL. That's alright.

So, okay. The flip side of some of my comments is that you can follow your conscience and convictions, leave, do well and be successful with no apparent loss, and no negative affect. Satisfied?

I know that my feelings and observations aren't reflective of everybody's experience, but there's no doubt that my comments have value & merit. And there's no doubt that not all the experiences are positive.

There are some people who will be successful no matter what they do in terms of leaving former denominational/organization fellowship and structure. Bro. Hardwick is one of those men, apparently, and there would be many more. But in my opinion he certainly doesn't give emphasis to or hold to the things he once did. He may have personal and private regret about some of that unknown to you. His church is not one I would want to attend because of the fact "Pentecost" is not given the emphasis and importance I feel it should be along with other things too.

The fact is too that you don't know what all Bro. Hardwick (or his wife) went through personally in dealing with all the changes that would have taken place as a result of his going it on his own either.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Felicity

The effect on churches, the effect on family, the effect on individuals themselves as a result of placing themselves outside the framework of what defined them and their life possibly since they were born can take a huge toll, in more ways than one.

In my experience any advantage is far outweighed by disadvantage and loss.

Seriously,

that sounds kinda cultic, don't you think?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Seriously,

that sounds kinda cultic, don't you think?

No, not necessarily. I think it's just a fact of how it can be to leave what you've been affiliated with, attached to, or member of for many years or all of your life.

[RevDWW]

The foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Jesus being the Chief Corner Stone is firm and unmovable. If you are built on it you should not be shaking. If walls and doors and window are added to the foundation that don't meet the owners specs then watch out, cause something is liable to come loose and fall.

Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I expected that kind of comment would be made by somebody. LOL. That's alright.

So, okay. The flip side of some of my comments is that you can follow your conscience and convictions, leave, do well and be successful with no apparent loss, and no negative affect. Satisfied?

I know that my feelings and observations aren't reflective of everybody's experience, but there's no doubt that my comments have value & merit. And there's no doubt that not all the experiences are positive.

There are some people who will be successful no matter what they do in terms of leaving former denominational/organization fellowship and structure. Bro. Hardwick is one of those men, apparently, and there would be many more. But in my opinion he certainly doesn't give emphasis to or hold to the things he once did. He may have personal and private regret about some of that unknown to you. His church is not one I would want to attend because of the fact "Pentecost" is not given the emphasis and importance I feel it should be along with other things too.

The fact is too that you don't know what all Bro. Hardwick (or his wife) went through personally in dealing with all the changes that would have taken place as a result of his going it on his own either.

I was mostly just picking at you but also making a point. You have a very valid point about what some people exerpience leaving.

I could be totally wrong but after reading your posts for years what I perceive you miss most is the sense of community, shared purpose, and intensity of the closed Oneness Pentecostal culture.

In my opinon it is a nice cocoon but it is just that - a cocoon. The "us against them" perspective that old time Oneness Pentecostals have regarding the rest of christendom does make for a strong culture. The extra biblical legalisms distinctives in dress code do the same.

I believe it is a false measuring stick though. As I have said in the past I do think because of the hoops one must jump through to be a part of a UPC or like church it weeds out the uncommitted and those slow to commit and therefore those who do submit to the extra biblcal legaism are usually 100% committed and more fervent.

it is just a completely different approach to what one considers church to be and methods of spreading the gospel and the great commission.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Felicity

The issue isn't always the issue. (Have I mentioned that before? LOL. )

But ..... there are lines of demarcation for us all and a point at which we say, "enough". For many, that line was crossed with the voting in of Res. 4 I guess.

The thing is ..... I look at these groups that splintered away from UPC and none of them in my opinion come close to offering what the UPCI does. The rich tapestry of history, tradition, men and women who are and have been heroes to many of us, the support, talent, giftings, abilities, ministries, passion, preaching, depth and stability aren't matched in the splinter off groups. .

Some might say you don't need all of that and maybe you don't, but to me there is great loss suffered in leaving the known for the unknown ....... not to mention the strain on and possible severing of relationships that often takes place as a result.

IMO

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

I wish I could say that ego was not involved in my own departure, but I can't. Ministers get caught up in the issues and forget the importance of submitting one to another in love as the Bible instructs us to do. Had I submitted to the body I probably would have gained a perspective on the value of history and heritage that would have led me to a different decision.

There is no perfect organization, so one has to give up something to belong to whatever group he decides he will fellowship with. These ministers need to carefully and prayerfully consider what they are giving up to pursue what you call "principle". One needs to count the cost before making such an important decision, rather than find 10 years later that there is regret for the cost to family, friends, and other Christians who were influenced by that decision.

Originally Posted by Felicity

The effect on churches, the effect on family, the effect on individuals themselves as a result of placing themselves outside the framework of what defined them and their life possibly since they were born can take a huge toll, in more ways than one.

In my experience any advantage is far outweighed by disadvantage and loss.

Great posts...