For those that left the UPC...

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Then you have a different view then Peter and Paul and the early church. They taught there was a conversation where you were saved from previous sin, an encounter where you can be saved from the power of sin currently, and the hope that you will be saved from the presence on sin in the future.

Salvation was always ongoing in the scripture. There is no point you can say, I am completely saved, if so that would mean you have no sin nature anymore to deal with. This was Paul's discourse in Romans 6,7,8. He also talked about was saved, presently being saved, and having the hope of salvation in the future.

Honestly bro, if we take Romans 10:9 and all the faith scriptures and leave out work out your own salvation, endure till the end, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, etc.. as necessity.. we have become totally different than the first church and we LOSE our apostolic identity.

That identity cannot be lost.

That being said I do not believe the Lord will let anyone that is currently seeking Him with their whole heart to be lost in Hell. He will lead them in truth.

I think you need to go back and read the whole book and not just the chapters you want to read that seem to back up your point of view. Romans was one letter written at the same time. To a church that had been saved by faith in the work of the cross. Nowhere can you find one passage that says they are saved by the works that did. It says because I am saved I will follow after the things of God.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

You want to quote Paul in chapter 6 but taking thing out of context forgetting what Paul wrote just two chapters earlier. HMMM

As for the preaching of salvation of Paul and Peter or any of the rest of the Apostles as to salvation?

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

And of course Jesus own words,
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

My friend when you put requirments and list upon the people of God whether you think they are in the word or not you bring the children of God back under the law. You make the whole work of the cross of none affect, you spit on the one who paid the price for your sins by going back under rules and regulations you say to him I don't need the work you did for me I can do it myself.

When God looks at you under Grace he looks through the blood of Christ and sees you perfect after you accept by faith his salvation.

Does this mean we go on sinning? after salvation? No this is what Paul is telling us in Romans. As we present our bodies a living tabernacle God's spirit renews our minds, Romans 12. Note Gods spirit not mans rules or LAWS.

This is what James is saying in
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James is not saying works save you he is saying when we are saved our life will show it by our actions. Just as Paul says if we have the spirit of God we will manifest the fruit of the spirit Gal. 5.

we have become totally different than the first church and we LOSE our apostolic identity.

That identity cannot be lost.

Seems to me you are more concered with your preconceived Apostolic idenity than you are truth. Jesus said your search the scriptures thinking you have found eternal life but they are they which speek of me. They don't lead to a salavation of works they all bring us back full circle to faith in the work of Chirst on the cross.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I think you need to go back and read the whole book and not just the chapters you want to read that seem to back up your point of view. Romans was one letter written at the same time. To a church that had been saved by faith in the work of the cross. Nowhere can you find one passage that says they are saved by the works that did. It says because I am saved I will follow after the things of God.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

You want to quote Paul in chapter 6 but taking thing out of context forgetting what Paul wrote just two chapters earlier. HMMM

As for the preaching of salvation of Paul and Peter or any of the rest of the Apostles as to salvation?

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

And of course Jesus own words,
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

My friend when you put requirments and list upon the people of God whether you think they are in the word or not you bring the children of God back under the law. You make the whole work of the cross of none affect, you spit on the one who paid the price for your sins by going back under rules and regulations you say to him I don't need the work you did for me I can do it myself.

When God looks at you under Grace he looks through the blood of Christ and sees you perfect after you accept by faith his salvation.

Does this mean we go on sinning? after salvation? No this is what Paul is telling us in Romans. As we present our bodies a living tabernacle God's spirit renews our minds, Romans 12. Note Gods spirit not mans rules or LAWS.

This is what James is saying in
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James is not saying works save you he is saying when we are saved our life will show it by our actions. Just as Paul says if we have the spirit of God we will manifest the fruit of the spirit Gal. 5.



Seems to me you are more concered with your preconceived Apostolic idenity than you are truth. Jesus said your search the scriptures thinking you have found eternal life but they are they which speek of me. They don't lead to a salavation of works they all bring us back full circle to faith in the work of Chirst on the cross.

This is a pretty long discourse you wrote. It will take me a while to address all that you have said.

Lets start with the last paragraph and move up. What works salvation am I preaching? How is baptism, receiving the Spirit, denying ourselves and taking up our cross, etc.. have anything to do with works? I do all that by faith.

No James was not saying works will be shown after we are saved, he is saying true faith doesn't exist without works. ( he wasn't talking about works of the Law either, like Paul was in Romans)

Of course we do not go on sinning after salvation, salvation is both an event and a process.. He that is born of God Sinneth not..
The whole work of salvation is not to give us a ticket to heaven, its to redeem us from sin and our sinful nature so that we may be judged righteousness and be granted eternal life with Jesus. This is a "work in progress" which is started at faith and repentance.

How do I make the cross of Christ of none effect? Jesus paid our debt in full so that we may experience his salvation and his salvation comes through Faith and repentance, being buried with him, and rising in the likness of his resurection. The cross is the first part of the gospel.

I didn't forget what Paul said in previous chapters in Romans. The whole discourse of Romans is the truth. We are saved by grace through faith and justified like Abraham was, and in order for this to happen we must believe Romans 4 and 5, be baptized Romans 6, deal with our sin nature Romans 7 and 8 by receiving and walking in His Spirit Romans 8. What part of Romans do I not get?

In summary my "preconceived ideas" about being apostolic is surely not what I was talking about. If I had "conceived" these ideas I would be preaching man's religion. I preach what the apostles preach in the book of acts concerning salvation and try to strive to be what they were in practice. What preconceived ideas are you referring to?

I believe you keep referring to the cross because that is where you end at, the cross, which in turn is repentance for us. It is our place of death to self and decision to follow Christ. Where did Jesus go after the cross? He was buried. The belief of confession alone doesn't require a burial of self into Christ for salvation. That is the next step.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Its sad that you could not find any solice so you went to a trinity church. How much does it bother you regarding their baptismal formula or belief on the Godhead. Are they " I will see three in heaven" type trinitarians or are they "its all one" type trinity

I believe that a person is justified/saved/regenerated by faith separate and apart from water and/or Spirit baptism. Actually, there are a lot of Apostolics who believe the same. If a person is truly justified/saved/born again by faith without water and/or Spirit baptism, there are multitudes of people all around us --many in trinity churches--who are our brothers and sisters. So, I attend a trinity church and fellowship lots of trinity people who are, in my opinion, part of the Body of Christ/the Church of Jesus Christ/the Family of God.

You mentioned two "differences" between trinity and oneness folks, water baptism and godhead view.

1. Well, I believe that water baptism according to the Bible is:
--for a repentant believer
--to be done by immersion if practically possible
--the name of Jesus with or without titles such as "Lord" or "Christ" should be spoken.
I realize all Christians do not see water baptism the same way as I do so I respect their opinions

2. godhead, well there are certainly lots of differences among us --whether we call ourselves trinity or oneness-- on the "godhead." That's quite evident by reading some of the posts on this forum. In my opinion we humans will never completely understand or explain our infinite triune God --He's way too big to fit into our puny minds-- so let's quit arguing about Him and just love Him and serve Him.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

I believe that a person is justified/saved/regenerated by faith separate and apart from water and/or Spirit baptism. Actually, there are a lot of Apostolics who believe the same. If a person is truly justified/saved/born again by faith without water and/or Spirit baptism, there are multitudes of people all around us --many in trinity churches--who are our brothers and sisters. So, I attend a trinity church and fellowship lots of trinity people who are, in my opinion, part of the Body of Christ/the Church of Jesus Christ/the Family of God.

You mentioned two "differences" between trinity and oneness folks, water baptism and godhead view.

1. Well, I believe that water baptism according to the Bible is:
--for a repentant believer
--to be done by immersion if practically possible
--the name of Jesus with or without titles such as "Lord" or "Christ" should be spoken.
I realize all Christians do not see water baptism the same way as I do so I respect their opinions

2. godhead, well there are certainly lots of differences among us --whether we call ourselves trinity or oneness-- on the "godhead." That's quite evident by reading some of the posts on this forum. In my opinion we humans will never completely understand or explain our infinite triune God --He's way too big to fit into our puny minds-- so let's quit arguing about Him and just love Him and serve Him.

If God had not intended us to understand his Godhead, there would not be so many scriptures that claim He is one.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

If God had not intended us to understand his Godhead, there would not be so many scriptures that claim He is one.

Isaiah 43:10-11 from the KJV
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Both trinitarians and oneness believe that there is one God. Both trinitarians and oneness believe that Jesus is that one God come in flesh. We both understand that there is one God. What we do not understand is all the minute details of how God can be one and three at the same time. We have several opinions expressed here on the forum from time to time about "oneness" and we all seem to disagree with one another, insult one another, and make fun of one another over it.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

Isaiah 43:10-11 from the KJV
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Both trinitarians and oneness believe that there is one God. Both trinitarians and oneness believe that Jesus is that one God come in flesh. We both understand that there is one God. What we do not understand is all the minute details of how God can be one and three at the same time. We have several opinions expressed here on the forum from time to time about "oneness" and we all seem to disagree with one another, insult one another, and make fun of one another over it.

It depends on the trinitarians perspective. Many believe "they" are one in unity or in love like a mother and father. Regardless of the minute details, God says he is a me, not a they. Anytime you assert the word "they" to God, you make him something He is not and that is dangerous.

While there are trinitarians (who really aren't trinitarians) who believe God is one being, like water and vapor and ice are different forms of the same substance. Those are what I call inwardly oneness believers who don't even know it hehe

[Sam]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

...God says he is a me, not a they. Anytime you assert the word "they" to God, you make him something He is not and that is dangerous....

yet in John 14:23 Jesus said, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

1 John 5:7 says there are three, then goes on to say who those three are --the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost-- then conitinues with these three are one. Based on the words "there are three"(tri) and "these three are one" (unity) some Apostolic teachers and preachers speak of the "triune" God, and that's where some Christians see a triunity or trinity.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

yet in John 14:23 Jesus said, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

1 John 5:7 says there are three, then goes on to say who those three are --the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost-- then conitinues with these three are one. Based on the words "there are three"(tri) and "these three are one" (unity) some Apostolic teachers and preachers speak of the "triune" God, and that's where some Christians see a triunity or trinity.

The we in John 14:23 is not God talking to God and that is in error if one thinks that. Paul perfectly explains this in 1 Timothy 2:5.

The 'They' in trinitarian lingo refers to multiple persons who are God. The "we" in this verse refers to the man Christ speaking to the Father (GOd, i.e. Word, father, Spirit)

I know there isn't in many that knowledge but regarding GOD (Father, Word, Spirit) said I even I am the Lord and beside me there is no Saviour.

The three is a me, not a they.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

...
The three is a me, not a they.

the three is a me and an I and a myself
and
the three is a we and an us and an ourselves.

These three (persons/personas/masks/roles/offices/manifestations/personalities/kenoomas) are one (God/Deity/Supreme Being)

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

the three is a me and an I and a myself
and
the three is a we and an us and an ourselves.

These three (persons/personas/masks/roles/offices/manifestations/personalities/kenoomas) are one (God/Deity/Supreme Being)

The Three (Father, Word, and Spirit) are never called a we. The only we that we see (LOL) in the scripture is when Jesus is talking to the Father. (thats humanity talking to deity) Not God the Word talking to God the Father

This is the DIFFERENCE between Trinity and oneness. What personality of Jesus talks to God. Trinity says its God the Son (the Word) while oneness would say is the man christ, his human personality.

This isn't necessary a oneness debate string here but the fact remains the THREE is a ME, not a they.

I even I am the Lord, beside me there is no God.