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  #441  
Old 01-27-2014, 09:10 AM
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Sister Alvear Sister Alvear is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

Something to chew on..and yes it is copied...
E. From counting the names of women mentioned in Paul’s epistles, we see that a full 24% of Paul’s co-workers were women.
1. “Thus 13 women are known by name to have been leaders in Pauline churches. Paul, in his letters, names 54 men within the churches, presumably all of whom had some leadership role.” (Dr. David Scholer, Professor of New Testament, Fuller Theological Seminary, Theology News and Notes, Mar. ’95, p. 22.)
a. Women leaders with churches in their homes: Lydia (Acts 16:14-15, 40); Chloe (I Cor. 1:11); Nympha (Col. 4:15); Apphia (and her husband Philemon, Philem. 2); Priscilla (and Aquilla, Rom. 16:3-5).
b. Other women leaders: Nereus’s sister (Rom. 16:15); Julia (Rom. 16:15); the mother of Rufus (Rom. 16:13); Mary (Rom. 16:6); Tryphaena (Rom. 16:12); Tryphosa (Rom. 16:12); Persis (Rom. 16:12); Euodia and Syntyche (Phil. 4:2- 3); Priscilla (Rom. 16:3); Phoebe (Rom. 16:1-2); Junia (Rom. 16:7).
F. In Romans 16, 10 of the 29 persons (35%) mentioned by Paul are women.
1. In Rom. 16:1-2 Phoebe is commended by Paul as a diakonos, the masculine title meaning “deacon” or “minister” (BAGD [Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker, A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament (University of Chicago Press, 1979)], p. 184, 2b.) in the early church, the office mentioned by Paul in I Tim. 3:8-13. I Tim. 3:11 specifically mentions women diakonos- ministers. (The fact that the word is masculine and not feminine shows that it denotes the title of the office of “deacon” and does not simply denote the common noun “servant.” Because if Phoebe were only being called a “servant” in the generic sense, the noun in apposition would have taken the feminine gender of Phoebe’s name as all adjectives and nouns do in Greek which are modifying feminine proper nouns, e.g. Phoebe is called “sister” with the feminine form adelphe in Rom 16:1 and “patroness” with the feminine form prostatis in 16:2; in Philem. 1 Apphia is called “sister” with the feminine form adelphe, while Philemon is called “brother” with the masculine form adelphos. )

Biblical Foundations for Women Alongside Men in Ministry 15
a. That women were “diakonos”-ministers in the early church is confirmed by an early second century AD letter by Pliny the Younger, Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (110-112 AD), which mentions two female slaves tortured for their faith in Christ, who are described in Latin as ministra, “ministers,” the common Latin translation of the Greek diakonos. (BAGD, p. 184, 2b)
b. In the first four centuries of Church history, women were included with men in the office of “diakonos”-minister. The Greek masculine title diakonos referred to both men and women until a separate order of women deaconesses is first attested in the Syrian Church ca. 380 AD. (K. Beyer, in Kittel, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. II, p. 93; Encyclop. Britannica, 1992, vol. I: 448.)
c. “Diakonos”-ministers, both men and women, served as prophets and teachers in the early church. A second century document called The Didache (“The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles”) mentions that both elders/bishops and deacons served as prophets and teachers. Didache 15:1 “Appoint for yourselves therefore bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, . . . for unto you they also perform the service of the prophets and teachers.” (H. Bettenson, Documents of the Christian Church [Oxford University Press, 1963], p. 64).
d. Phoebe is also called by Paul prostatis, “patroness, guardian” (BAGD, p. 718). The Greek verb related to this term is proistemi “to manage, conduct” (BAGD, p. 707), which suggests that Phoebe exercised some level of leadership as a “diakonos”-minister. The same verb proistemi is used of leadership functions in Rom. 12:8; I Thes. 5:12; I Tim. 3:4, 5, 12.
2. In
first, suggesting her leadership prominence in the early church.
Romans 16:3 Paul greets Priscilla and Aquilla. He, like Luke, names Priscilla
3. In Romans 16:7 Paul mentions that Junia and Andronicus (most likely Junia’s husband) are among the apostles.
a. Junia was a common Latin female name in the Roman Empire. Some scholars have claimed that the name in the Greek text of Rom. 16:7, Iounian (the accusative form), is a hypothetical Greek abbreviation, “Junias,” of the Latin male name “Junianus.” But there is absolutely no evidence at all that there ever

Biblical Foundations for Women Alongside Men in Ministry 16
was a masculine name “Junias” in the Roman Empire, according to Dr. Peter Lampe, Professor of New Testament, Union Theological Seminary, Richmond, Virginia:
“Without exception the Church Fathers in late antiquity identified Andronicus’ partner in Rom. 16:7 as a woman, as did minuscule 33 in the 9th century which records iounia with an acute accent. Only later medieval copyists of Rom. 16:7 could not imagine a woman being an apostle and wrote the masculine name ‘Junias.’ This latter name did not exist in antiquity; its explanation as a Greek abbreviation of the Latin name “Junianus” is unlikely.” (P. Lampe, “Junias,” Anchor Bible Dictionary, vol. 3, p. 1127)
b. The Church Father, John Chrysostom (died 407 AD), who had a negative view of women in many cases, understood “Junia” in Rom. 16:7 as a woman and marveled that she could be called an apostle: “Oh how great is the devotion of this woman,(2) that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!” (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 31 on Romans 16:5-16, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series 1, vol. 9, [“Chrysostom: Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistle to the Romans”], Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1971-1980). The first commentator to understand “Junia” as the hypothetical masculine name “Junias” was Aegidius of Rome in the 14th century AD. (D. Scholer, Theology News and Notes, Mar ’95, p. 22)
c. That Junia was recognized among the apostles in the early church is understandable, if the early church had Deborah in mind as the senior judge and a “mother in Israel,” Miriam as a prophetic leader under Moses, and Huldah as a prophetic leader under King Josiah.
G. Were women among the elders of the early church? If Deborah as a female judge was included with men under the masculine plural Hebrew title “judges” (Heb. masc. plural shofetim) in Ju. 2:16, and Phoebe and other women were included with men under the masculine Greek title diakonos in Rom. 16:1 and I Tim. 3:8 and 11, and Junia was included with Andronicus and other men under the plural Greek title “apostles” (Grk. masc. pl. dative apostolois) in Rom 16:7, then it is not inconceivable that women were included with men under the masculine plural Greek title “elders” in the early church.
1. In I Timothy 5:1-2 Paul mentions “female elders” (presbuterai) alongside “male elders” (presbuteroi). Translators often assume that the passage is only referring to “older men” and “older women,” but Paul uses the same word in the masculine form of the church office of “elder” later on in the same chapter—I Tim. 5:17, 19. It is hard to imagine the same word being used in the same chapter with two unrelated meanings. The fact that the masculine form of the word denotes the office of “elder” in I Tim. 5:17, 19 suggests that the same word in its masculine
 
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  #442  
Old 01-27-2014, 09:10 AM
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

Biblical Foundations for Women Alongside Men in Ministry 17
and feminine forms also refers to, or at least includes reference to, the office of elder in 5:1-2.
2. There is clear archaeological evidence that in the post-biblical early church there were women elders alongside the male elders (D. Irvin, “The Ministry of Women in the Early Church: The Archaeological Evidence,” Duke Divinity School Review 2 [1980]: 76-86):
a. Egypt: A 2nd -3rd century inscription refers to a woman named “Paniskanes” as a presbutera “female elder.”
b. Egypt: 3rd century Bishop Diogenes set up a memorial to a woman named “Amonnian the female elder (presbutera).”
c. Rome: The 4th century Basilica of Prudentiana and Praxedis contains a mosaic including a woman referred to as “Bishop Theodora” (episcopa Theodora). Concerning this mosaic, Irvin says, "Under a high arch in a Roman basilica dedicated to two women saints, Prudentiana and Praxedis, is a mosaic portraying four female figures: the two saints, Mary, and a fourth woman whose hair is veiled and whose head is surrounded by a square halo—an artistic technique indicating that the person was still living at the time the mosaic was made. . . . A carefully lettered inscription identifies the face on the far left as Theodora Episcopa, which means Bishop Theodora. The masculine form for bishop in Latin is episcopus; the feminine form is episcopa. The mosaic's visual evidence and the inscription's grammatical evidence point out unmistakably that Bishop Theodora was a woman. But the -a [ending] on Theodora has been partially effaced by scratches across the glass tiles of the mosaic, leading to the disturbing conclusion that attempts were made to deface the feminine ending, perhaps even in antiquity."
In about 363 A.D. the Council of Laodicea (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series II, Vol. XIV [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1971-1980]) stopped the practice, which was common until then, of appointing “elder women” (presbutides) to positions of leadership in the Church. The words of the Council prohibition suggest these elder women taught both men and women: Council of Laodicea, Canon XI “In old days certain elder women (presbutides) sat in Catholic churches, and took care that the other women kept good and modest order. But from their habit of using improperly that which was proper, either through their arrogancy or through their base self-seeking, scandal arose. Therefore the Fathers prohibited the existence in the Church thereafter of any more such women as are called presbytides or presidents. And that no one may object that in the monasteries of women one woman must preside over the rest, it should be remembered that the renunciation which they make of themselves to God and the tonsure brings it to pass that they are thought of as one body though many; and all things which are theirs, relate only to the salvation of the soul. But for women to teach in a Catholic Church, where a multitude of men is gathered together, and women of different opinions, is, in the highest degree, indecorous and pernicious.”

Biblical Foundations for Women Alongside Men in Ministry 18
The error of this 4th century prohibition becomes clear when one realizes that Priscilla would have been prevented from teaching Apollos with her husband Aquilla as she did in Acts 18:26, and the same would be true of Deborah judging and teaching men alongside women as a “mother in Israel” in Judges 4-5 as well as the proverbial mother and wife teaching the men alongside the women in her household in Prov. 1:8; 6:20; 23:22; 30:17; and 31:26.
3. In the OT the daughters of Zelophehad were included among the “elders” of Israel standing before Moses on the Plains of Moab in Deut. 29:10, because the daughters of Zelophehad represented their clan among the elders and heads of tribes according to Num. 27:1-11 and 36:1-9. (I Kings 8:1, 3 defines elders as heads of tribes and heads of families in Israel.)
4. In the book of Hebrews we see that the Greek term "elders" included women. In Hebrews 11:2 we read "This (faith) is what the elders (Greek presbuteroi) were commended for.” It won’t do to say, as some scholars do, that this use of the term is not the technical use of the term “elders” referring to the church office of elder and that it is only a generic use of the term to refer to older generations of believers. The word used in Heb. 11:2 is exactly the same word as that used for the office of elders in the NT, and it is hard to imagine the early church not making any semantic or conceptual connection between the elders who were in the cloud of witnesses (Heb. 11:2 and 12:1) and the elders who were over their local churches.
a. The Greek word presbuteroi in Heb. 11:2 has been translated into English by the terms "elders" (KJV, NKJV, ASV) and "men of old" (RSV, NASB), and “ancients” (NIV).
b. Yet among these "elders" mentioned we find:
• Sarah (Heb. 11:11, 13);
• Moses' mother (Heb. 11:23);
• the women among "the people" who crossed the Red Sea (Heb. 11:29); • Rahab (Heb. 11:31);
• Deborah (Ju. 4-5), Miriam (Exo. 15:20; Mic. 6:4), Huldah (II Kgs 22), who were all recognized prophets (Heb. 11:33);
• the woman of Zaraphath (1 Kings 17:17-24 and the Shunnamite woman (2 Kings 4:8-36) "who received back their dead, raised to life again” (Heb. 11:35).
c. These "elders" are the same ones who surround us as "the great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1. Clearly, in broader biblical usage the term "elders" includes women.
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  #443  
Old 01-27-2014, 09:11 AM
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

5. I Timothy 3:1 introduces the requirements for an overseer/ elder (I Tim. 3:1 and Tit. 1:6-7) with the words “If anyone desires to be an overseer. . . .” In I Tim. 3:1, Greek tis “anyone, anybody, whoever,” is both feminine and masculine like other third declension nominal and pronominal forms which have the –s nominative case ending for both masculine and feminine genders in opposition to a distinct neuter form for these same nominal and pronominal forms.
a. The fact that Greek tis is both feminine and masculine in its gender reference is common knowledge in all introductory Greek grammars, for example, E. Goetchius, The Language of the New Testament, (New York: Scribners, 1965), p. 298 (§378); H. E. Dana and J. R. Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (New York: Macmillan, 1955), p. 317.
1. Goetchius cites the example from John 3:3 “Unless one (tis) is born from above,” which hardly refers only to men rather than women being born again. Obviously Jesus’ words in John 3:3 and the use of Greek tis refer indefinitely to both men and women, as the word also does in I Tim. 3:1.
b. Again, if Deborah as a female judge was included with men under the masculine plural Hebrew title “judges” (Heb. masc. plural shofetim) in Ju. 2:16, and Phoebe and other women were included with men under the masculine Greek title diakonos in Rom. 16:1 and I Tim. 3:8 and 11, and Junia was included with Andronicus and other men under the plural Greek title “apostles” (Grk. masc. pl. dative apostolois) in Rom 16:7, then it is not inconceivable that women were included with men under the masculine plural Greek title “elders” in the early church.
H. In II John the apostle John addresses “the elect lady” as a gatekeeper over her household and her children—most likely the house-church that met in her home. She is responsible for discerning false teachings from true teachings, and she is responsible for keeping false teachers and prophets out of her home and to keep them from influencing her children.
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  #444  
Old 01-27-2014, 09:14 AM
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

II John 1, 4-11 The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth --and not I only, but also all who know the truth. . . . It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you

Biblical Foundations for Women Alongside Men in Ministry 20
and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
1. The fact that the “elect lady” is responsible to discern true and false teaching suggests that she was responsible for teaching in her home and likely was teaching like Priscilla did with her husband Aquilla in Acts 18:26.
a. How could someone be held responsible for discerning true and false teaching if they were not capable of teaching and weren’t actively teaching?
2. Some NT scholars think this letter refers only to the woman’s own home and her own children. But why would a letter for someone’s own children and household alone be preserved in the New Testament, which is a collection of teachings for the whole Church?
a. That these instructions in II John for her “children” are for the disciples in her house-church is suggested by the fact that the term “children” is often used in John’s letters and in the NT to refer to disciples or members of a church (I Cor. 4:14; 12:14; Gal. 4:19; I Thes. 2:7, 11; I Jn. 2:1, 12, 13, 18, 28; 3:7, 18; 4:4; 5:21; III Jn. 4). Further more we have already pointed out women with house-churches that are mentioned in the NT: Lydia (Acts 16:14-15, 40); Chloe (I Cor. 1:11); Nympha (Col. 4:15); Apphia (and her husband Philemon, Philem. 2); Priscilla (and Aquilla, Rom. 16:3-5).
3. The “elect lady” herself is being addressed as the gatekeeper over her house- church. John did not address the elders or deacons of her house-church, but her herself.
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  #445  
Old 01-27-2014, 10:47 AM
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

LOL - That's the AFF spirit gals! Ignore grammar, exegesis, syntax, CONTEXTS, innumerable professional linguists quotes, plain Bible - continue asserting I've "ignored," not answered, blah, blah, blah. I think ANYONE with ANY amount of common sense can see that I've very carefully demonstrated your errors & y'all have been caught over & over & over making Biblical errors.


Your response? Stubbornly stick your fingers in your ears & keep spewing out the same error - just as I said you would ! Oh, & I see that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE has been able to offer ANY sort of exegetical reason why Dr. Daniel Wallace's syntax of I Tim. 2 should be overturned - ya' know why? Because y'all don't know how - so, what do you do? Ignore it & copy-paste the identically same commentary that has been shown to be completely erroneous over & over. Though y'all don't realize it, you look foolish (This has been confirmed to me by several others) & it's painfully apparent that your false doctrine is completely bankrupt.


Even in just a very cursory gloss I saw numerous textual errors in every post today - sigh.....Behold the very face of stubborn defiance.


No problem though, I'll demonstrate once again your biblical errors a little later tonight ! My prediction? You'll continue to ignore the distinct contexts, careful grammar of the inspired texts, etc. & copy-paste more of the same passages that are ENTIRELY wrested to cram in your false doctrines. What else did I expect? This is AFF !


See ya' later tonight & I'll try to help y'all out once again (on the road today). Reminds me of a sick puppy. Sometimes they can get so sick they refuse milk---Same with y'all & this issue--You're simply too sick on your doctrinal errors to accept healthy food....You just don't know it !
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Last edited by rdp; 01-27-2014 at 10:51 AM.
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  #446  
Old 01-27-2014, 11:55 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

boy, and what a shining example you are
do you not realize that you only hurt your case with this?
or are you so lost that you imagine anyone might follow you? what?
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  #447  
Old 01-27-2014, 12:13 PM
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Dordrecht Dordrecht is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

This whole thread is now starting
to look like the greatest "copy-paste" battle
of the century.

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  #448  
Old 01-27-2014, 12:17 PM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

i'm not quite sure what the argument against copy/paste even is, if it states one's point? But i will say that it is sure nice not knowing everything anymore
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  #449  
Old 01-27-2014, 12:19 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dordrecht View Post
This whole thread is now starting
to look like the greatest "copy-paste" battle
of the century.

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  #450  
Old 01-27-2014, 12:21 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by shazeep View Post
i'm not quite sure what the argument against copy/paste even is, if it states one's point? But i will say that it is sure nice not knowing everything anymore
IMO, first-hand account from a direct source is preferred over copying and pasting something found online. I don't have anything against copying and pasting information, so long as it's sourced with a link.

From what I've gathered in this great copy/paste war, is that RDP feels his first-hand information is superior to Sis. Alvear's copying and pasting of information from various websites.

Last edited by n david; 01-27-2014 at 12:23 PM.
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