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Originally Posted by Aquila
People in our day value rationalism. Honestly, it baffles me how they can believe in so many supernatural events in the Bible... yet they can't conceive of evil spirits taking on fully functional physical forms.
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Okay, it seems you are basing your argument upon what belief requires more conception of the range of what can occur in the supernatural the most.
Well, I can conceive a lot of supernatural things that can occur. But that is not the argument as you wish it to be.
This issue is one regarding the question of proper interpretation. THAT is the issue. If Jesus said one thing and we distort that and allow for what normally could not be allowed for without misinterpreting a passage, then it is a matter of what the Word is telling us we should accept as fact versus fable.
It is not a matter of me making two choices:
1) something ultra supernatural that is really beyond the scope of human limitations in regards to ability
2) Something less supernatural than can be seen as closer to natural than supernatural
...and pick number 2, because it does not require as much belief in the possibilities of what can occur in the supernatural than your view does.
That is not the issue.
Do you believe this view simply because it is more WILD than my view? Do you determine the truth of two opposing interpretations by how much one is more supernatural than the other? That's what you're implying here.
I can "conceive" in my mind an actual gigantic and monstrous-sized red dragon bigger than galaxies that very well could exist in outer space with a tail so huge that actual stars can be moved from their places. IT COULD OCCUR if God said it did. If the Bible said God made such a thing, then I would not throw the bible out because I could not accept such thing. I would accept it. God can make ANYTHING! I do not believe that is a symbol of the devil and the devil is not a galaxy wide giant in reality because it is more SUPERNATURAL for an actual galaxy wide giant to exist than a lesser spirit that we all know of today as satan. I do not think that is the proper interpretation of
Revelation 12's red dragon just because my mind can conceive such a thing can exists if God meant for us to believe it does using
Rev 12, and such a thing would require more stretching of my faith to believe something as SUPERNATURAL as THAT can exist.
But that is how you are determining truth now? You USED THE SAME ARGUMENT against partial preterism once when you said our view lessens the SUPERNATURAL AND THE SENSATIONAL, as though we were wrong because our view generally does not involve what would require more sensationalism than your view does. You even said God DOES sensational things! So, it seems to be your basis for determining truth.
So, let's deal with that. Which interpretation requires more stretching of what our minds can conceive and accept in such greater outstanding supernatural things for us to know what interpretation is correct, determines what is truth.
I can see two people talking and giving their interpretations of a passage. One says to the other, "Okay, I know what is the true interpretation. It's yours, because what I believe that passage is speaking about requires less faith in the supernatural than yours does."
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Jacob wrestled an angel, Abraham ate with the Angel of the LORD and two other angels. Clearly angels can take physical forms with which they can wrestle and eat (and by eating, I assume us the restroom). What could an evil angel choose to do with a physical form should they assume one?
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Of course they can take physical forms. Jesus never made a statement that said a certain kind of angels can't, allowing for others to do so, as He did about procreation.
You see, the issue we are comparing stems from Jesus' words that angels "in heaven" cannot marry or be given in marriage. You say FALLEN ONES CAN because they are not in heaven like Jesus referred to. I say the reference to "heaven" simply contrasts mortal existence and the way things occur in earth with mankind where earth has been our environment, from immortal angels who exist in a different environment.
But Jesus did not say anything applied to that issue of angels eating or not, as though SOME ANGELS cannot take physical form and eat while OTHERS CAN, like you are saying is the case with some angels creating and others unable to.
You guys make it out like angels have the ability to change forms to actually procreate, but God commanded them to NOT USE THAT POWER. THAT is what is absurd!
It's the implications you are presenting when you make this stand that are so absurd, not the degree of supernatural ability. It is not a reference to my lack of ability to accept a supernatural possibility. It is my disagreement that Christ would say something is true for angels in ability compared to fallen angels.
I can just hear it now... one fallen angels speaks to a heavenly angel, saying, "Hey, Gabriel, too bad you didn't fall like we did! You could have sex with human women!!! Boy,m are you missing out." And Gabriel walks away shaking his head thinking to himself, "Yes, that would be fantastic but I must deny myself and not use my power to change forms and mate with women because I am a heavenly angel and do not want to lose my first estate!"
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It's possible that they can rape and impregnate. This would be a most heinous act... God has always drawn strong lines between people of differing spiritual heritage in Scripture. This would be an absolute abomination worse than anything imaginable. Hence the reason why these angels were bound in chains of darkness until the day of judgment.
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Again, you are arguing that your belief is right simply because a person must exert more possibility for the supernatural than what my view allows, and that is not the case at all. It is whether it is correct to take Christ's words and say He implied fallen angels can marry whereas heavenly angels can but are not allowed. THAT is what is absurd to me.
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On a side note... some have speculated that it may have been Hell's attempt at corrupting the generations of the human race to prevent the coming of the incarnation.
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I can imagine a lot of wild speculations that could have happened that we are not flatly told have happened, too. But I am limited by what the Word tells us to believe. And nothing states angels fell and turned themselves into forms into which God disallows for the heavenly angels to change.
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