For those that left the UPC...

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by faithit166

the word skirt in hebrew is kanaph strongs 3671 it means edge or extremity.hem men did not wear skirts back in the day

So you think men in the Bible wore pants/trousers?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him

Whta is that saying?

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


G5219
ὑπακούω
hupakouō
hoop-ak-oo'-o
From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.

Read it for yourself, the question is not, we are saved by obediance, this would constitute a list no man could complete to be saved. But rather that our salvation is proved by our obediance as we walk with God.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

In other words after we are saved we become subordinate to God. But salvation is a free gift of God that was paid for us on Calvary. This by no means, means we can live any way we want to after we are saved. As Paul stated in Romans 4 Abraham was made righteouse because of faith, just as we are. But as Abraham obeyed and was circumcised as a seal of his faith, and walked with God. We are saved by faith in the work of Christ on the cross, we are baptized as a seal of our salvation. To not be baptized would be the same as not being circumcised on the OT.

That is the way I see things, I again say this, I don't care to dispute other than to lay things out the way I see them. As far as I am concerned you are intitaled to your opinion.
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


G5219
ὑπακούω
hupakouō
hoop-ak-oo'-o
From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.

Read it for yourself, the question is not, we are saved by obediance, this would constitute a list no man could complete to be saved. But rather that our salvation is proved by our obediance as we walk with God.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

In other words after we are saved we become subordinate to God. But salvation is a free gift of God that was paid for us on Calvary. This by no means, means we can live any way we want to after we are saved. As Paul stated in Romans 4 Abraham was made righteouse because of faith, just as we are. But as Abraham obeyed and was circumcised as a seal of his faith, and walked with God. We are saved by faith in the work of Christ on the cross, we are baptized as a seal of our salvation. To not be baptized would be the same as not being circumcised on the OT.


those not circmucised were cut off as well. Does that apply to baptism.


That is the way I see things, I again say this, I don't care to dispute other than to lay things out the way I see them. As far as I am concerned you are intitaled to your opinion.
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

One thing I notice is it says obey him, not a list of rules and such. Many have faith believing in Christ and he died for their sins, but smoke dope, fornicate etc....are they saved? They will confess Christ is lord and raised from the dead.


You qouted James 2 but let's read on to verse 24:

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"


Seems to go against your faith alone position.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by missourimary

My church left the UPC years ago, but I left my church last year. I had always followed the standards completely. I didn't leave because of standards or because of a love for the world. I can honestly say that I've been happier this last year than I was for years in church. I'm very glad I left, too.

Thanks for sharing, Mary. It's amazing how good it is to leave (when you do it right, meaning....you have worked it through and know it's right). When you are deciding, there is so much fear and tales of woe about leaving.....but, after you're out, it's mostly relief. I have my times of whistfulness, but much moreso at the beginning than now, when I was really dealing with re-entering the larger culture.

[faithit166]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

So you think men in the Bible wore pants/trousers?

absolutely,they were called breeches,exodus 28;42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach and they shall be upon aaron and upon his sons when they come into the tabernacle of the congregation or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place that they bare not iniquity and die it shall be a statute forever unto him and his seed after him,so absolutely yes they wore breeches in strongs concordone breeches are described as underwear drawers or trousers 2 a priestly undergarment, i ran across this site if youre interested in reading some god bless http://christianhospitality.org/chweb/clothes.pdf

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by faithit166

absolutely,they were called breeches,exodus 28;42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach and they shall be upon aaron and upon his sons when they come into the tabernacle of the congregation or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place that they bare not iniquity and die it shall be a statute forever unto him and his seed after him,so absolutely yes they wore breeches in strongs concordone breeches are described as underwear drawers or trousers 2 a priestly undergarment, i ran across this site if youre interested in reading some god bless http://christianhospitality.org/chweb/clothes.pdf

Yes, those were undergarments that priests wore.

Men wore robes. Men and women wore robes.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by ILG

Thanks for sharing, Mary. It's amazing how good it is to leave (when you do it right, meaning....you have worked it through and know it's right). When you are deciding, there is so much fear and tales of woe about leaving.....but, after you're out, it's mostly relief. I have my times of whistfulness, but much moreso at the beginning than now, when I was really dealing with re-entering the larger culture.

I was afraid to leave a building because I thought that meant walking out on God-even if I just went to a church that didn't preach the same standards but still preached Acts 2:38, I was afraid I'd backslide. But I got to a point that I knew I'd stop believing in God if I stayed, due to some situations that were taking place. Then a preacher (Oneness, UC) preached one night about 1 Cor 3:10-15:

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The foundation is Jesus. Not the dresses or the sleeves or the hair. Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. That's a sure foundation. An unshakeable one. Pretty much everything else in my life was shaking right then, but I knew at that moment that there was one thing that was firm.

The truth won't be shaken because I leave a building or don't sit under a certain man. Truth will stand firm in the face of any lie. I decided it was time to see what the work built on my foundation was made of. The result was very surprising.

There was a time that something absolutely horrible happened a number of years ago. I finally prayed, "God, I'm at the end of my rope. I'm gonna tie a knot in the end of it and hold on with both hands, my toes and my teeth. And if I fall anyway, please catch me." I finally let go of that rope, and guess what?



(God's a really good catcher! )

[truthseeker3139]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

One thing I notice is it says obey him, not a list of rules and such. Many have faith believing in Christ and he died for their sins, but smoke dope, fornicate etc....are they saved? They will confess Christ is lord and raised from the dead.


You qouted James 2 but let's read on to verse 24:

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"


Seems to go against your faith alone position.

It's a matter of perspective, in Romans 4 in whose eyes are you justified by faith apart from works? Apart from works, means solely on the basis of faith does God justify the ungodly. Paul is speaking of justification through the eyes of God and not man. In James 2, James is speaking of justification as seen through the eyes of men

[ILG]

Originally Posted by missourimary

I was afraid to leave a building because I thought that meant walking out on God-even if I just went to a church that didn't preach the same standards but still preached Acts 2:38, I was afraid I'd backslide. But I got to a point that I knew I'd stop believing in God if I stayed, due to some situations that were taking place. Then a preacher (Oneness, UC) preached one night about 1 Cor 3:10-15:


The foundation is Jesus. Not the dresses or the sleeves or the hair. Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. That's a sure foundation. An unshakeable one. Pretty much everything else in my life was shaking right then, but I knew at that moment that there was one thing that was firm.

The truth won't be shaken because I leave a building or don't sit under a certain man. Truth will stand firm in the face of any lie. I decided it was time to see what the work built on my foundation was made of. The result was very surprising.

There was a time that something absolutely horrible happened a number of years ago. I finally prayed, "God, I'm at the end of my rope. I'm gonna tie a knot in the end of it and hold on with both hands, my toes and my teeth. And if I fall anyway, please catch me." I finally let go of that rope, and guess what?



(God's a really good catcher! )

Good story. Thank for sharing!

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by truthseeker3139

It's a matter of perspective, in Romans 4 in whose eyes are you justified by faith apart from works? Apart from works, means solely on the basis of faith does God justify the ungodly. Paul is speaking of justification through the eyes of God and not man. In James 2, James is speaking of justification as seen through the eyes of men

It may depend on what the works are that a person is doing, and whether they are doing the works because they love God or are trying to earn salvation.

Mat 7:15
[quote]Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ [/qutoe]

Mt 25:34-45

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

They did the same things. And they called on the name of the Lord. But their focus was wrong. When they thought they were doing these things for God, they were not. When they did them out of a kind, humble spirit, they were accepted. The fruit was not the works, but the motive and attitude in which the works were done. Try to earn salvation and it will escape you. Simply live right along with faith in God because of faith in God and the love for others that He puts in your heart, and the result may surprise you.