John3 and Romans2: Part2

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You always prove my point. You are sad.

No comment.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Don, you are not the boss of us!
There is no rapture to heaven, nor eternal damnation in hell.

No comment.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

It’s not a complement. You are certainly not an apostle. Especially not the Apostle Paul. You probably have a picture of Pope John Paul II next to your bed.

No comment.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Most people probably see you and walk the other way.

No comment.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Here again we have a poster, Dominic Benincasa, who likes to put words in other's mouths they never spoke, in efforts to make them look bad.Evangelist Dominic Benincasa would have you think that I believe people who haven't received the Holy Ghost are raptured, when I don't. And saints need the Holy Ghost to rise. Paul says that these Gentiles don't have the law. Any having the gospel also have the law. Therefore these who don't have the law can't have the gospel or they would also have the law. Not having the gospel means they don't have the Holy Ghost and thus will not go up in the rapture. But not having the Spirit of Christ doesn't prevent them in being resurrected from the dead to be judged at the White Throne, where the Lord uses, along with the Books, the conscience to judge people. If used as a measurement for judging then some with a clean conscience will be judged righteous, given entrance to heaven. Makes sense to me. How about you, Dominic Benincasa, how is my logic working in this post?

Ro2:13-16 ...(3)"the doers of the law will be justified"; for when (1)"Gentiles, who do not have the law", by nature (conscience) do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, (2) "who show the work of the law written in their hearts", their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.What would you say dear reader, does it show in black and white (Dom will likely jump all over me because I made a mistake and said black and white when the text is red and white. He also will say my whole life is a mistake, because that is what he does.) that (1) Gentiles, who do not have the law will be seen as just because these (2)who show the work of the law written in their hearts (doesn't someone who shows the law in the heart also do that law? Yes because the heart is the center of the will.) will be seen as just because (3) the doers of the law will be justified and admitted to heaven. Did I miss something or have I twisted the scripture to say that which it doesn't plainly say. Dominic Benincasa, will say that only those born again go to heaven and these here will fry in hell if not born again. And how can they be born again if they have not the law or the gospel? Evangelist will now post that my brain is fried.

Obviously, Dominic Benincasa needs help to reconcile what Paul says here (along with Ro5.13) with the rest of the NT -- which correctly shows salvation by the new birth, which help I now offer. Reconciling these two is easy. One part applies to those who have heard the gospel and the other applies to those those who have not. They do not contradict each other. Ro5.13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.shows that those who don't have God's Word aren't judged as if they had God's Word -- and these Gentiles of Ro2 don't have the Word. Did you notice how scripture and scriptural principles were used to come to this conclusion? Easy-peasy when the Bible is read and interpreted the way Paul presents it. But Dominic Benincasa refuses to drink the Kool-Aid and agree with Paul. Dominic Benincasa stops reading the Bible at Ac2.38 and doesn't read and agree to Ro2.12-16. As the saying goes, you can lead Evangelist Dominic Benincasa to Kool-Aid but you can't make him drink it. Oh, well (said in efforts to make Evangelist Dominic Benincasa look bad when ignoring scripture so others don't make the same mistakes).

Dominic Benincasa will say my posts are too long. What are you really saying by this? Any would wonder why he takes the time to read them. Duh, just stop reading them? Then they would be super short, right Dom. But hard to stop when he's said his aim is to mock what I say. Oh, well, bring it on brother Dom. That's what brothers are born for. Bring it on brother Dom.

Dom says How could you call it a "church age?" when not everyone in that "age" is of the church? How is it that you are named Benincasa when half your DNA is from your Mom and half from your Dad? Or were they both Benincasa? Shouldn't your name reflect both parents names. Figure this out and you will then see why the church age is called the church age.

Dom says HowThe rapture happens and all the Rabbinate in Brooklyn, and Miami go up in the rapture? What? Where do these ideas come from. They didn't start with me or reflect what I've said. But keep trying. There's a lot of good in you so don't give up. Bring it on brother Dom.

Ok, you say “right living” individuals who followed God’s moral law which you see as the conscience go to heaven?

Yes, or no?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Ok, you say “right living” individuals who followed God’s moral law which you see as the conscience go to heaven?

Yes, or no?

This is a yes or no question?

Which is it? Yes? Or no?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Bring it on brother Dom.

Bro, do you even lift?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Moving from the other thread to here to consolidate the discussion:



I think you have misinterpreted (or misapplied) this passage in Romans to unregenerate persons. Paul speaks of these gentiles as "showing the work of the law written in their hearts". The Bible identifies the writing of the law in the heart as a key element of the new covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-33 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:6-10 KJV
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The old covenant did not produce a people that bore the fruits of righteousness, reflecting God's moral character in their lives. The new covenant was established to remedy that problem, to produce obedience, to produce a people who did in fact reflect the character of our Father:

Romans 8:3-7 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then when Paul speaks of the uncircumcised actually doing the things contained in the law, thus showing the "work of the law written in their hearts", these must of necessity be regenerated persons, people in the new covenant, who have experienced the writing of God's law in the heart by the Spirit of God, even though they are not physically circumcised.

So it seems the context of Paul's words is those who are in the new covenant, that the uncircumcised (gentile Christian) would be justified rather than the circumcised (Jewish non-christian), that the disobedient but circumcised Jew would fare worse than the obedient but uncircumcised Christian.

For anyone needing to be brought up to speed on this thread. Esaias ended this debate literally in the first portion of this thread. The primary issue we are now dealing with is an individual who cannot deal with being wrong. Esaias did a great job posting the Biblical irrefutable proof on Romans.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Here is another example where a Scriptural doctrine is being misinterpreted. I don't really fault you, because this error is rampant within the religion calling itself "Christianity", although it is not taught by the apostles and thus is not part of the real apostolic faith.

It concerns the use of the term "foreknowledge". You are basically saying God has foreknowledge in eternity past, before the creation of anything, as to who is and who is not in the Book of Life. But notice the following:

1. Matthew 25:34 does not say this nor imply this. It says that the kingdom is from the foundation of the world, that the righteous are to enter the kingdom prepared for them "from the foundation of the world". This simply means that from the foundation of the world God had a kingdom prepared for the righteous, NOT that God foreknew who exactly and specifically the righteous would be, nor that any of them would specifically and individually make it to that kingdom.

2. Foreknowledge, as used by Scripture, specifically the apostle Paul, does not have regard to "God knowing in eternity past who specifically and individually would be saved and who not." Rather, it has regard to God's prior ordained destiny for Israel, that they would enter the new covenant:

Romans 8:28-30 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Here, those who are foreknown, are predestinated to be saved Christians. Who then are those whom God foreknew?

Romans 11:1-4 KJV
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. [2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, [3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. [4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

It is Israel which was foreknown of God. It is therefore Israel which is predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. These are they whom are said to be not only predestinated but called and glorified. As here:

Romans 9:1-5 KJV
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, [2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. [3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: [4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; [5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The adoption to God through Christ pertains to Israelites. The glorification through Christ pertains to Israelites. The covenants - PLURAL, both old and new - pertain to Israelites. the service of God and the promises pertain to Israelites. Why? Because Israel is the people "foreknown" of God, who are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. NONE of this has to do with any particular person's personal, individual, destiny "predetermined in advance by God before the creation of anything".

God's foreknowledge (in this context), and the doctrine of predestination, has to do with the NATIONAL STATUS and POSITION of the descendants of Jacob, that they are the people foreknown of God, they are the people predestinated as a people to become Christians, to enter the new covenant under Christ, to be glorified with Christ, to be adopted as children of God through Christ, etc. The new covenant was made with "the House of Judah and the House of Israel". Christ said "I am not come but for the lost sheep of the House of Israel". Predestination and foreknowledge are not about individual personal destinies, but the corporate destiny of Israel.

God has always had a Book of Life. In every age, in every generation, people are either in that Book (they are faithful to God) or not. Abraham's children are written in the Book by virtue of being children of Abraham, because they are part of the Covenant God made with Abraham. BUT they are "blotted out" if they are not faithful. One cannot be "blotted out" of a book they are not previously written in. Christians who are in the Book can be blotted out of the Book if they are not faithful. Why? Because the Book of Life is the record of those in covenant with God, which means Israel and those joined to Israel via the New Covenant.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Paul never says these are unregenerate people. You are reading that into the text. The discussion is about people who have the law (Jew) and people who do not have the law (Gentile). Members of both groups shall perish if they are sinners, regardless of whether they have the law or not (regardless of whether they are circumcised or not, regardless of whether they are members of the Sinaitic Covenant or not).

But the righteous are those who will not perish, again regardless of whether they are circumcised or not. The circumcised "covenanted" Jew who sins shall be put to shame by the uncircumcised "uncovenanted" Gentile who does righteousness. Therefore one's status UNDER THE OLD COVENANT IS IRRELEVANT, one's circumcision status doesn't matter.

The righteous Gentile is described by Paul as one who has the law of God written in the heart. He says that specifically. The Bible applies the writing of the law of God upon the heart as an effect of the New Covenant. Therefore these righteous but uncircumcised Gentiles Paul speaks of MUST OF NECESSITY be in the New Covenant, which in turn means they MUST OF NECESSITY be regenerated Christians.

You would have to show how and where the Bible describes unregenerated Gentiles who know not God but who nevertheless have "God's law written in the heart". And no, you cannot just point back to Romans 2 as your proof text because that is the text in question and you need to find SUPPORTING EVIDENCE of your interpretation.

Again, Paul doesn't call these Gentiles "unregenerate" nor does he say they do not know God. He says they are uncircumcised but have the law of God written in their heart, and therefore are counted by God as though they were circumcised, whereas the actually circumcised Jew who does not have God's law written in the heart and who therefore does evil shall be counted as if they were uncircumcised.

If someone has the law of God written in their heart, and if the writing of the law of God in the heart is the key element of the New Covenant when contrasted with the Old, then those who have the law of God written in their heart are members of the New Covenant. And therefore these Gentiles in romans 2 are not unregenerate heathens who do not know God, but are regenerate Christian Gentiles.