Question about Acts 2:38: What about the martyrs?

[shazeep]

[shazeep]

if you sound like them, how can one tell?

[mfblume]

The issue of making a statement such as, “All muslims are lost,” must stem from a certain mindset in order for it to be completely necessary and true. Obviously part of the present company disagrees. I will explain why my statement is true.

To me, saying “All Muslims are lost,” is synonymous with saying one is lost if they pursue salvation by works. Simple as that. It’s an objective statement, not intended to demean or lower any individual, but rather to attack the doctrine of salvation by works.

We all know the Bible clearly forbids salvation by works. And since the Muslim doctrine is steeped in salvation by works – even to the extent that they encourage people to follow Jesus’ example – it is a false religion and people who call themselves Muslims are people who are simply declaring you are to save yourself by good works.

When a person understands the revelation that the work of the cross is what saves us, and not our own good works, there is an incredible sense of humility that ensues. When we obey the gospel and apply it to our lives through the identification of Acts 2:38, the FAITH that Christ did the work to save us, and we are inserted INTO HIM by realization we must abandon any shred of hope that our good works will saves us, God saves us based upon our faith. If He sees a grain of self-initiated works to save ourselves by being as good as we can in our concept, then we are in trouble. Hence, the humble state of a heart that knows God’s work alone, through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, saves us.

It is NOT being hateful or demeaning to say all Muslims are lost any more than it is to say homosexuality is a sin. But the spirit of the day out there in the world considers accusations of sin to stem from hate. Ridiculous. That is not only ridiculous, but extremely dishonest.

Good works are to be maintained in a Christian life.

Titus_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Titus_3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

But those good works do not save us. They are to manifest in our lives BECAUSE we are already saved. That is why good works manifest from fruit OF THE SPIRIT. They are OF THE SPIRIT and not OF THE FLESH. The Salvation-by-works doctrine produces works of the flesh.

Does it mean we hate Muslims because we say they are all lost? Of course not. God thinks no less of Muslims as people than He thinks of us. There is no respect of persons with God for the very same reason that salvation by works is a false doctrine. One man can do no more good than another to obtain salvation. So, how can there be respect of persons with God? And when I say all Muslims are lost I also understand that I am not better than a muslim, because I have nothing to boast about as though I personally have a quality that I obtained from my own efforts to improve myself. I cannot feel superior to Muslims simply because I am saved when they aren’t, because I did not earn my salvation! Superiority can only exist if one party is personally better by way of doing better than another. Since only faith IN GOD’S WORKS through the work of the cross can save me, then I see nothing in myself that makes me better than a Muslim.

We cast our crowns at Christ’s feet in Revelation because HE did the work, not us, and HE alone deserves the honour.

The parable of the Good Samaritan does not promote salvation by works whatsoever. I think everyone agrees. And telling a Muslim he is lost is by no means being unkind and unlike the Good Samaritan. Jesus told people they were lost unless they followed God’s plan, which was not salvation by works.

Luke 13:1-5 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. (2) And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? (3) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (4) Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? (5) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


No one is better than another. EVERYONE must repent or perish. The Muslim does not repent. Jesus told these words to people who could just as well have been Muslims. Was Jesus unkind? Of course not. But we do the same thing and some think we’re unkind. Crazy.

Jesus said no one is any worse a sinner than the next person. EVERYONE must repent. There is no respect of persons here. THAT is the spirit in which I say Muslims are lost. I don’t leave it at that, like some would try to make me out to say. I explain salvation by works DOES NOT SAVE. And I prove it with statements from the Bible. The Muslims all appreciate and agree with words about maintaining good works. They even say we should follow Christ’s example. But THEY WILL NOT SAY we must repent, and get baptized into the death of Jesus – since that is indication that we truly do understand the work of the cross alone saves us. WII even said the parts of the bible that state we shall all bow down and call Jesus Lord WERE NOT OF GOD. Look for it on the forum. He said it.

And Shazeep claims that as Jesus said the prostitutes and the drunks shall enter the kingdom before we do, because we claim all muslims are lost. He fails to note the very same point the Muslims refuse to acknowledge in Christ’s words about the prostitutes and drunks. The point to consider is not how prostitutes and drunks are demeaned by people, as Shaz thinks we’re demeaning Muslims, but that prostitutes and drunks KNOW THEY ARE SINNERS, and don’t need much coercion to repent of their sins. The religious refuse to think they are sinners. That is the Muslim. The Muslim thinks he can save himself and has no need to repent to God. When we have to repent to God, we know there is nothing we can do to make up for our sins and to better ourselves so that our good works outweigh our bad. We simply know all we can do is ask God to forgive us. For God to have to forgive us means He knows full well that that’s the only remedy for our sins. Otherwise, forgiveness would not be involved at all if we could outweigh our bad deeds with good ones.

The priest in the parable of the Good Samaritan felt he was better than the Samaritan, and refrained from helping him simply because he was not of a certain fleshly bloodline that the priest possessed. Ethnicity made the priest feel superior to the Samaritan, so as to avoid “defiling” himself with the wounded man, along with the fact his priesthood indicated his religion of good works for salvation. By saying all Muslims are lost is not saying I am better than a Muslim, as though my ethnicity or my religion of good works makes me superior. God loves him as much as He loves me. And I would help the Muslim as much as I would help a fellow Christian believer. I would stop and help the man, and not at all avoid him due to his religion, because Jesus said there is no respect of persons with God and I am to love my neighbour as myself. So Shaz has completely twisted the purpose of the parable of the Good Samaritan. The purpose is to show God is no respector of persons, and demands we treat everyone including Muslims with help and assistance and kindness. And when a statement is made saying all Muslims are lost with the facts in mind that we are to help them as we would anyone else, and that there is nothing personally superior in myself than in the Muslim, but it is a simple factual statement that shows the work of the cross to fully save, alone, is clearly in my understanding, then I am in no way being unkind as Shazeep is false accusing me of being.

When I say all Muslims are lost, I am not thinking my religion makes me better, as though I do more good works than he does based upon my religion’s commandments to me to do so. I am not thinking my ethnicity makes me better than a Muslim, because I know God is no respector of persons, and nothing we can do think or be as the result of something in my flesh that a Muslim doesn’t have can catch God’s admiration to save me. I know that the same faith I have in full reliance on the work of God to save me, knowing that when I obey the gospel and Acts 2:38, before I have a chance to do a single good deed that I am instructed to do, I am fully righteous – I am so righteous that I am as righteous as Jesus, Himself, since HE GAVE ME HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS due to HIS WORK that I relied upon in order to be able to stand fit before my God. THAT is what THE PARABLE OF THE GOOD SAMARITAN POINTS OUT. Being kind to everyone, because no one’s religion makes THEM better than anyone else’s. No one’s ethnicity makes THEM better than anyone else. And we should help anybody regardless of their religion, because I am no better than they are, and God loves us both equally.

Now, twist and distort Job’s story and the parable of the Good Samaritan all you wish Shazeep. But the fact remains that you have to twist my intentions and words to those of hate in order to say my claim that Muslims are lost is unkind. It’s the REASON I say what I do that determines whether or not I am unkind. Why does a reason not matter?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The issue of making a statement such as, “All muslims are lost,” must stem from a certain mindset in order for it to be completely necessary and true. Obviously part of the present company disagrees. I will explain why my statement is true.

To me, saying “All Muslims are lost,” is synonymous with saying one is lost if they pursue salvation by works. Simple as that. It’s an objective statement, not intended to demean or lower any individual, but rather to attack the doctrine of salvation by works.

We all know the Bible clearly forbids salvation by works. And since the Muslim doctrine is steeped in salvation by works – even to the extent that they encourage people to follow Jesus’ example – it is a false religion and people who call themselves Muslims are people who are simply declaring you are to save yourself by good works.

When a person understands the revelation that the work of the cross is what saves us, and not our own good works, there is an incredible sense of humility that ensues. When we obey the gospel and apply it to our lives through the identification of Acts 2:38, the FAITH that Christ did the work to save us, and we are inserted INTO HIM by realization we must abandon any shred of hope that our good works will saves us, God saves us based upon our faith. If He sees a grain of self-initiated works to save ourselves by being as good as we can in our concept, then we are in trouble. Hence, the humble state of a heart that knows God’s work alone, through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, saves us.

It is NOT being hateful or demeaning to say all Muslims are lost any more than it is to say homosexuality is a sin. But the spirit of the day out there in the world considers accusations of sin to stem from hate. Ridiculous. That is not only ridiculous, but extremely dishonest.

Good works are to be maintained in a Christian life.

Titus_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Titus_3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

But those good works do not save us. They are to manifest in our lives BECAUSE we are already saved. That is why good works manifest from fruit OF THE SPIRIT. They are OF THE SPIRIT and not OF THE FLESH. The Salvation-by-works doctrine produces works of the flesh.

Does it mean we hate Muslims because we say they are all lost? Of course not. God thinks no less of Muslims as people than He thinks of us. There is no respect of persons with God for the very same reason that salvation by works is a false doctrine. One man can do no more good than another to obtain salvation. So, how can there be respect of persons with God? And when I say all Muslims are lost I also understand that I am not better than a muslim, because I have nothing to boast about as though I personally have a quality that I obtained from my own efforts to improve myself. I cannot feel superior to Muslims simply because I am saved when they aren’t, because I did not earn my salvation! Superiority can only exist if one party is personally better by way of doing better than another. Since only faith IN GOD’S WORKS through the work of the cross can save me, then I see nothing in myself that makes me better than a Muslim.

We cast our crowns at Christ’s feet in Revelation because HE did the work, not us, and HE alone deserves the honour.

The parable of the Good Samaritan does not promote salvation by works whatsoever. I think everyone agrees. And telling a Muslim he is lost is by no means being unkind and unlike the Good Samaritan. Jesus told people they were lost unless they followed God’s plan, which was not salvation by works.

Luke 13:1-5 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. (2) And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? (3) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (4) Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? (5) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


No one is better than another. EVERYONE must repent or perish. The Muslim does not repent. Jesus told these words to people who could just as well have been Muslims. Was Jesus unkind? Of course not. But we do the same thing and some think we’re unkind. Crazy.

Jesus said no one is any worse a sinner than the next person. EVERYONE must repent. There is no respect of persons here. THAT is the spirit in which I say Muslims are lost. I don’t leave it at that, like some would try to make me out to say. I explain salvation by works DOES NOT SAVE. And I prove it with statements from the Bible. The Muslims all appreciate and agree with words about maintaining good works. They even say we should follow Christ’s example. But THEY WILL NOT SAY we must repent, and get baptized into the death of Jesus – since that is indication that we truly do understand the work of the cross alone saves us. WII even said the parts of the bible that state we shall all bow down and call Jesus Lord WERE NOT OF GOD. Look for it on the forum. He said it.

And Shazeep claims that as Jesus said the prostitutes and the drunks shall enter the kingdom before we do, because we claim all muslims are lost. He fails to note the very same point the Muslims refuse to acknowledge in Christ’s words about the prostitutes and drunks. The point to consider is not how prostitutes and drunks are demeaned by people, as Shaz thinks we’re demeaning Muslims, but that prostitutes and drunks KNOW THEY ARE SINNERS, and don’t need much coercion to repent of their sins. The religious refuse to think they are sinners. That is the Muslim. The Muslim thinks he can save himself and has no need to repent to God. When we have to repent to God, we know there is nothing we can do to make up for our sins and to better ourselves so that our good works outweigh our bad. We simply know all we can do is ask God to forgive us. For God to have to forgive us means He knows full well that that’s the only remedy for our sins. Otherwise, forgiveness would not be involved at all if we could outweigh our bad deeds with good ones.

The priest in the parable of the Good Samaritan felt he was better than the Samaritan, and refrained from helping him simply because he was not of a certain fleshly bloodline that the priest possessed. Ethnicity made the priest feel superior to the Samaritan, so as to avoid “defiling” himself with the wounded man, along with the fact his priesthood indicated his religion of good works for salvation. By saying all Muslims are lost is not saying I am better then a Muslim, as though my ethnicity or my religion of good works makes me superior. God loves him as much as He loves me. And I would help the Muslim as much as I would help a fellow Christian believer. I would stop and help the man, and not at all avoid him due to his religion, because Jesus said there is no respect of persons with God and I am to love my neighbour as myself. So Shaz has completely twisted the purpose of the parable of the Good Samaritan. The purpose is to show God is no respector of persons, and demands we treat everyone including Muslims with help and assistance and kindness. And when a statement is made saying all Muslims are lost with the facts in mind that we are to help them as we would anyone else, and that there is nothing personally superior in myself than in the Muslim, but it is a simple factual statement that shows the work of the cross to fully save, alone, is clearly in my understanding, then I am in no way being unkind as Shazeep is false accusing me of being.

When I say all Muslims are lost, I am not thinking my religion makes me better, as though I do more good works than he does based upon my religion’s commandments to me to do so. I am not thinking my ethnicity makes me better than a Muslim, because I know God is no respect of persons, and nothing we can do think or be as the result of something in my flesh that a Muslim doesn’t have can catch God’s admiration to save me. I know that the same faith I have in full reliance on the work of God to save me, knowing that when I obey the gospel and Acts 2:38, before I have a chance to do a single good deed that I am instructed to do, I am fully righteous – I am so righteous that I am as righteous as Jesus, Himself, since HE GAVE ME HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS due to HIS WORK that I relied upon in order to be able to stand fit before my God. THAT is what THE PARABLE OF THE GOOD SAMARITAN POINTS OUT. Being kind to everyone, because no one’s religion makes THEM better than anyone else’s. No one’s ethnicity makes THEM better than anyone else. And we should help anybody regardless of their religion, because I am no better than they are, and God loves us both equally.

Now, twist and distort Job’s story and the parable of the Good Samaritan all you wish Shazeep. But the fact remains that you have to twist my intentions and words to those of hate in order to say my claim that Muslims are lost is unkind. It’s the REASON I say what I do that determines whether or not I am unkind. Why does a reason not matter?

AMEN

[mfblume]

When Acts 2:38 is obeyed properly, and not in an empty ritualistic sense, one knows they're identifying with Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Baptism when done in faith that God intended Christ's death to count as our deaths is part of salvation. If done in an empty ritual, as though the action earns something, it does nothing. But with the heart that believes Jesus died as us, and we're identifying with that in faith to allow God to grant us that salvation, then it is salvation.

[shazeep]

ps, you did not answer my question because you cannot answer my question, and you are essentially keeping to the position that you have nothing left to learn, and that the Good Samaritan has nothing to teach you. So be it.

i am aware that you did not mean evil, which is why i even bothered to come back. It is perfectly natural to assume that you have some special knowledge, and everyone else has it wrong; it is what people do, to keep from losing their sense of identity. Scripture lists several indications of when one is on the right path, that i have listed, and you may refer to them, and by all means ignore me. Justify it however you like; and witness the results. You will die in your sins if you do not change your thinking on this matter--it is as simple as that--so i wish you the best.

You might seek how telling someone they are lost equates with hating them, which seem to be differentiated in many minds. They are not, as even you witness against, every time i tell you that you are hopelessly lost, and prostitutes have more chance than you do. May God strike me dead if i am misleading you.

[mfblume]

Shazeep, drop the arrogance. I can answer all you ask. Please. You refuse to see the point. Simply because you cant see how postulating religious adherents' loss of salvation is not hating them and is not demeaning them, doesn't mean it isn't. I've been wanting to discuss the point and you keep popping off arrogance as though you know my heart and that's that. You speak in purposed riddles as though to exalt your perspective target than get to the point. From what you have said about who's and thieves despite context we've pointed out, you clearly don't appreciate the talk work of the cross, or all would be plain to toy.

Arrogance. Wow.

[shazeep]

i am doing that because you are doing that when you say "They are lost;" but when i do it to you it is "arrogance." You are absolutely correct--it is arrogance. God has quite plainly forgiven people whom you do not forgive; I'm not sure how it can be made any plainer. So, I'll give you the last word, and peace to you.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i am doing that because you are doing that when you say "They are lost;" but when i do it to you it is "arrogance." You are absolutely correct--it is arrogance. God has quite plainly forgiven people whom you do not forgive; I'm not sure how it can be made any plainer. So, I'll give you the last word, and peace to you.

What is this antibiblical stuff you speak? What kind of bible is it to say a plain statement about salvation by works is error and you claim God forgives those who don't repent? Jesus says we perish if we don't repent and you disanull all that.

You make the word of none effect.

Get off your high horse and talk. You've done nothing but speak arrogance and now claim you do it since we are, and we've plainly shown the fact none are better than others. You ignore that and continue to malign the word. Get real for a moment.

Stay in the word. The Spirit and Word agree. Your pride refuses to see our point on your judgement you started from the beginning. Don't use the excuse you only do what we've done, as if you hadn't been arrogant from the start. How stubborn can one be?

Your view makes all the bible say to be moot in reference to a person so long as that one is accused of not following the word. What made you hate doctrine and mock it? Had we not shown what doctrine is in the word, you'd have continued to malign the mention of it.

You even mocked the use of doctrine asking if it's doctrine to love our neighbors. You didn't know doctrine was teaching. Anything to diminish the work of the cross, though, right? To give Muslims a ticket apart from the cross allows you to somehow throw in your two cents too, right? For what, we don't know. But there's some aversion to His work your flesh didn't like.

[mfblume]

I suppose staying with the word is heartless, right? You can't see the word teaching truth in love even if it's telling someone they're lost.

Speaking of not answering. ... you never answered this. .

Is it possible to tell someone they've been condemned already if they don't believe?

You seem to not think so. You cannot imagine the word codemning and people repeating that info.