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  #411  
Old 12-23-2012, 06:48 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

Some would argue that it's not the words said during baptism, but the attitude of one's heart towards God, since both formula's are found in the bible. "The bottom line is that the name/names in which we are baptized is not as important as the recognition that baptism identifies us with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, our Savior. We are buried with Him and risen to walk with Him in newness of life."

http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Jesus-name.html

Question: "Should we be baptized in Jesus' name (Acts 2:38), or in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)?"

Answer: Acts 2:38 records the Apostle Peter’s words on the day of Pentecost, “Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” This was a strong affirmation by Peter that “there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). Being baptized in the name of Jesus indicates an understanding by the person being baptized that Christ is the Savior.

Christian baptism is also in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). Being baptized in this manner simply means we are identifying ourselves with the Trinity. We belong to the Father, are saved by the Son, and indwelt by the Spirit. This is similar to how we pray in Jesus’ name (John 14:13). If we pray in the name of Jesus, we are praying with His authority and asking God the Father to act upon our prayers because we come in the name of His Son, Jesus. Being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is being baptized in identification with them and their power over and in our lives. Jesus Himself specifically tells us to baptize “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19).

In the Book of Acts, new believers were baptized in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38; 8:12; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5). It is, however, essentially the same thing—Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are one (John 10:30; Acts 16:7). Per Jesus’ own instructions, believers should be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but as the book of Acts proves, baptizing in the name of Jesus is also done. The bottom line is that the name/names in which we are baptized is not as important as the recognition that baptism identifies us with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, our Savior. We are buried with Him and risen to walk with Him in newness of life.
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  #412  
Old 12-23-2012, 07:23 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Some would argue that it's not the words said during baptism, but the attitude of one's heart towards God, since both formula's are found in the bible. "The bottom line is that the name/names in which we are baptized is not as important as the recognition that baptism identifies us with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, our Savior. We are buried with Him and risen to walk with Him in newness of life."

http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Jesus-name.html

Question: "Should we be baptized in Jesus' name (Acts 2:38), or in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)?"

Answer: Acts 2:38 records the Apostle Peter’s words on the day of Pentecost, “Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” This was a strong affirmation by Peter that “there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). Being baptized in the name of Jesus indicates an understanding by the person being baptized that Christ is the Savior.

Christian baptism is also in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). Being baptized in this manner simply means we are identifying ourselves with the Trinity. We belong to the Father, are saved by the Son, and indwelt by the Spirit. This is similar to how we pray in Jesus’ name (John 14:13). If we pray in the name of Jesus, we are praying with His authority and asking God the Father to act upon our prayers because we come in the name of His Son, Jesus. Being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is being baptized in identification with them and their power over and in our lives. Jesus Himself specifically tells us to baptize “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19).

In the Book of Acts, new believers were baptized in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38; 8:12; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5). It is, however, essentially the same thing—Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are one (John 10:30; Acts 16:7). Per Jesus’ own instructions, believers should be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but as the book of Acts proves, baptizing in the name of Jesus is also done. The bottom line is that the name/names in which we are baptized is not as important as the recognition that baptism identifies us with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, our Savior. We are buried with Him and risen to walk with Him in newness of life.
If it were not important to be baptized in Jesus name he would have said so. Instead all the baptisms in the Bible starting at the beginning were in to the name of Jesus. So there was no such thing as anything else.

But obviously if ones heart is not right when he gets baptized he receives nothing from the Lord.
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  #413  
Old 12-23-2012, 07:27 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
If it were not important to be baptized in Jesus name he would have said so. Instead all the baptisms in the Bible starting at the beginning were in to the name of Jesus. So there was no such thing as anything else.

But obviously if ones heart is not right when he gets baptized he receives nothing from the Lord.
He was the one who came up Matthew 28:19

possibly the most confounding scripture in the bible imo.
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  #414  
Old 12-23-2012, 08:51 AM
Pliny Pliny is offline
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Re: All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
He was the one who came up Matthew 28:19

possibly the most confounding scripture in the bible imo.
There is nothing confusing about it. It harmonizes well with Luke 24 observe:

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:



In Matt. the Disciples were told to go to all nations
In Luke this same is inferred by stating repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name beginning at Jerusalem. The beginning is just that - the beginning.

In Matt. the Disciples are told to baptize in the name of the F,S, HS.
In Luke repentance and remission of sins are preached. Peter in Acts 2 tells us that remission of sins occurs at Baptism in Jesus name; thus, both refer to baptism.

Since Jesus opened the understanding of the Disciples to the scriptures and they always everywhere and every time baptized in Jesus name we should follow the Apostolic teaching and do the same.
No amount of human ingenuity can change the fact that Jesus opened the understanding of the Disciples.
No amount of human speculation can reverse the fact that Jesus told the Disciples how and why to baptize.
No amount of human self justification can erase the fact that the Disciples always without equivocation baptized in Jesus name.
No amount of human reasoning can change the fact that the Bible only knows of Jesus name baptism.

Paul stated forthrightly:
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
Inferring the whole church of Corinth was baptized in a singular name.


To argue that baptizing in the titles is the same thing as baptizing in the name is ludicrous. Titles are not names. This is a Trinitarian mindset used to justify the Trinitarian doctrine which is also unknown in the Bible. Paul also stated:
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

There is nothing "confounding" about it. Unless you're a Trinitarian attempting to justify a non-Biblical mode of baptism.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

We are buried with HIM not them...
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  #415  
Old 12-23-2012, 11:36 AM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Some would argue that it's not the words said during baptism, but the attitude of one's heart towards God, since both formula's are found in the bible. "The bottom line is that the name/names in which we are baptized is not as important as the recognition that baptism identifies us with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, our Savior. We are buried with Him and risen to walk with Him in newness of life."

http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Jesus-name.html

Question: "Should we be baptized in Jesus' name (Acts 2:38), or in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)?"

Answer: Acts 2:38 records the Apostle Peter’s words on the day of Pentecost, “Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” This was a strong affirmation by Peter that “there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). Being baptized in the name of Jesus indicates an understanding by the person being baptized that Christ is the Savior.

Christian baptism is also in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). Being baptized in this manner simply means we are identifying ourselves with the Trinity. We belong to the Father, are saved by the Son, and indwelt by the Spirit. This is similar to how we pray in Jesus’ name (John 14:13). If we pray in the name of Jesus, we are praying with His authority and asking God the Father to act upon our prayers because we come in the name of His Son, Jesus. Being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is being baptized in identification with them and their power over and in our lives. Jesus Himself specifically tells us to baptize “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19).

In the Book of Acts, new believers were baptized in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38; 8:12; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5). It is, however, essentially the same thing—Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are one (John 10:30; Acts 16:7). Per Jesus’ own instructions, believers should be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but as the book of Acts proves, baptizing in the name of Jesus is also done. The bottom line is that the name/names in which we are baptized is not as important as the recognition that baptism identifies us with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, our Savior. We are buried with Him and risen to walk with Him in newness of life.
Though I do not have the time right now (& frankly, I've tired grown weary w/ this), the Koine' "Law of Prepositions" in the construction "in the name of" is lexically defined as "to invoke or pronounce the name of."


As it relates to Mt. 28.19, the prepositional construction is eis in the accusative case (denoting the direction of the preposition toward the noun translated "Name" [onama]), which Thayer & numerous other grammarians will tell you means "to speak the name of." Hence, the next step in Mt. 28.19 is simply to find what that "onama/name" is....& speak it over converts!


Hint: When we locate "the name of the Son" we have equally identified the "name of the Father....and the Holy Spirit" .


**I'm copying & pasting a recent study I did on John 17.11 below:


CEB: Holy Father, watch over them in YOUR Name, the Name you gave Me.

ERV: Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of YOUR Name—the Name you gave Me.

Mounce: Father, keep them in YOUR Name, the Name that you have given Me.

NASB: Father, keep them in Your Name, the Name which You have given Me.

NET: Holy Father, keep them safe in YOUR Name that you have given Me.

NIRV: Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of YOUR Name. It is the Name you gave Me.

NIV: Father, protect them by the power of YOUR Name, the Name you gave Me.

NLT: Holy Father, you have given Me your Name;


*(KJV): Holy Father, keep through thine own Name those whom thou hast given me.


**Note: The KJV reads “Those whom thou hast given me…,” but this is an absolute impossible translation since ‘Whom’ in Greek would have to be Plural, Masculine, Accusative.

Instead it is Singular, Neuter, Dative, and must match the Singular, Neuter, Dative Noun “Name” that it modifies—Not the Plural Believers.


Grammatically, the pronoun virtually always matches the tense, gender and case of the noun it modifies….In this case “Your (Father’s) Name!”

**Jesus is the Name of the Father!
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Last edited by rdp; 12-23-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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  #416  
Old 12-23-2012, 01:27 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
There is nothing confusing about it. It harmonizes well with Luke 24 observe:

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:



In Matt. the Disciples were told to go to all nations
In Luke this same is inferred by stating repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name beginning at Jerusalem. The beginning is just that - the beginning.

In Matt. the Disciples are told to baptize in the name of the F,S, HS.
In Luke repentance and remission of sins are preached. Peter in Acts 2 tells us that remission of sins occurs at Baptism in Jesus name; thus, both refer to baptism.

Since Jesus opened the understanding of the Disciples to the scriptures and they always everywhere and every time baptized in Jesus name we should follow the Apostolic teaching and do the same.
No amount of human ingenuity can change the fact that Jesus opened the understanding of the Disciples.
No amount of human speculation can reverse the fact that Jesus told the Disciples how and why to baptize.
No amount of human self justification can erase the fact that the Disciples always without equivocation baptized in Jesus name.
No amount of human reasoning can change the fact that the Bible only knows of Jesus name baptism.

Paul stated forthrightly:
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
Inferring the whole church of Corinth was baptized in a singular name.


To argue that baptizing in the titles is the same thing as baptizing in the name is ludicrous. Titles are not names. This is a Trinitarian mindset used to justify the Trinitarian doctrine which is also unknown in the Bible. Paul also stated:
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

There is nothing "confounding" about it. Unless you're a Trinitarian attempting to justify a non-Biblical mode of baptism.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

We are buried with HIM not them...
Not according to the New Apostolic Testament that says that verse was inserted early on
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #417  
Old 12-23-2012, 03:43 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

I've had a long day at work. I want to spend some time with my family this evening, so I won't contribute much today. However, I wanted to pause for a moment to refocus this discussion. The title of this thread is "All Trinitarians are Lost". I refute the idea that ALL Trinitarians are lost. I maintain that soteriologically, it is impossible for someone who is Spirit baptized and trying to live for God to be described as lost, the doctrinal statement of their church and the words said over them in baptism notwithstanding. I maintain this by the very nature of what is described in scripture as to what Holy Ghost baptism is and does. I also refute the idea that one is lost based soley on his or her use of the word "Trinity" in regards to his view on the Godhead. "Trinity" is just a word. It is not a demonic word. Words do not threaten our Lord. Many who use this word as a description for God are actually Oneness and don't realize it. It's silly therefore to play God and piously declare that all of these people are lost. The question should be considered, what if a Trinitarian believed soteriology as taught by Acts 2:38? Is he still lost because he is "Trinitarian"?

Some things that are not in question with me....

That the evidence, both biblical and historical, point to the fact that the Name of Jesus was used by those administering baptism

That baptism was "in order that your sins might be forgiven" and not just a post salvation act.

That Trinitarians need to be lovingly exhorted about errors in the doctrinal statements of their churches.

That once a Trinitarian has come to his own conclusion that God intended that the name of Jesus be used in baptism, that he or she should be rebaptized as an act of identifying with his enlightenment on the subject.

Last edited by Originalist; 12-23-2012 at 03:49 PM.
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  #418  
Old 12-23-2012, 04:27 PM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
I've had a long day at work. I want to spend some time with my family this evening, so I won't contribute much today. However, I wanted to pause for a moment to refocus this discussion. The title of this thread is "All Trinitarians are Lost". I refute the idea that ALL Trinitarians are lost. I maintain that soteriologically, it is impossible for someone who is Spirit baptized and trying to live for God to be described as lost, the doctrinal statement of their church and the words said over them in baptism notwithstanding. I maintain this by the very nature of what is described in scripture as to what Holy Ghost baptism is and does. I also refute the idea that one is lost based soley on his or her use of the word "Trinity" in regards to his view on the Godhead. "Trinity" is just a word. It is not a demonic word. Words do not threaten our Lord. Many who use this word as a description for God are actually Oneness and don't realize it. It's silly therefore to play God and piously declare that all of these people are lost. The question should be considered, what if a Trinitarian believed soteriology as taught by Acts 2:38? Is he still lost because he is "Trinitarian"?

Some things that are not in question with me....

That the evidence, both biblical and historical, point to the fact that the Name of Jesus was used by those administering baptism

That baptism was "in order that your sins might be forgiven" and not just a post salvation act.

That Trinitarians need to be lovingly exhorted about errors in the doctrinal statements of their churches.

That once a Trinitarian has come to his own conclusion that God intended that the name of Jesus be used in baptism, that he or she should be rebaptized as an act of identifying with his enlightenment on the subject.
^^^THIS^^^
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  #419  
Old 12-23-2012, 04:39 PM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

We must 'endure to the end' (of our life) for any of us to be saved anyway.


But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

(I Corinthians 9:27)

Nobody else knows what Christ is going to teach to us in our lifetime. We make all sorts of twists and turns as we follow Jesus.
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Last edited by AreYouReady?; 12-23-2012 at 04:41 PM.
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  #420  
Old 12-23-2012, 05:04 PM
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Re: All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

See...................
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STILL believing the same after all these years
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