Do we have to pay tithes?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Cornflakes? Who eats cornflakes for breakfast anymore? What a horrible way to start your day.

Aquila?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

That is because we all know what is packed into that word "tithe". Words have meanings. Connotations.

When someone says tithe, they tend to mean "pay 10% gross or go straight to hell". They say it nicer than that...but we've been around long enough to know what they mean. So yeah...it's easy to tune out when people start harping on how we ought to tithe.

Don't pretend the opposite isn't equally true though. The minute your side hears someone say they don't believe in tithing you also become hard of hearing and think we all mean that no one should give to the church to support it.

Btw no one ever said quote unqoute not paying tithes would send you to hell. Not paying tithes is robbing God (Malachi 3:9)+thieves can't inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)= "go straight to hell" as you said. But I never have met a man stand flat foot in shoe leather and say anything like that. In itself that would be ridiculous.

More than anything it's about the condition of the heart. For we see many different cases in Kings and Chronicles of people who "walked right in God's sight but yet their heart was not perfect before Him." Ita all about the Spirit it's done in. For Paul warned in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." Iniquity is a powerful spirit, this is exactly the spirit Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 2:2 when he says "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" In all things be prayerful and hold tight to the truth given of Proverbs 4:23 "Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life."

God says something very powerful in Jeremiah 17:9-10 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? [10] I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings." In the end only God truly knows. We are not fit even to judge our own heart! I speak blessings over you this day. This is not just to you friend, but spoken to all who will see.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

No it wouldn't. That is an assumption based on your own perception.

Perhaps. Nevertheless, it was a rather oppressive practice when the Roman Catholic Church finally revived the OT practice of tithing as a result of the Council of Macon in 585 AD.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think if men understood the history of "tithing" in Western culture, it would send chills down their spine. For centuries, the tithe was enforced by secular governments at the behest of religious authorities, and refusal to tithe could lead to the seizure of property, scourging, and fines. It was a tool of extortion used by a very oppressive theocratic system.

After the various revolutions that led to the separation of church and state, civil governments began dropping statutes enforcing the tithe. And churches began requiring it privately for membership.

For more information feel free to take a look at the following link:

Secular History of Tithing
http://tithing-russkelly.com/id15.html

In that case that wouldn't be a tithe, but a tax. Considering the church ran the world. That's communism, not to be confused with tithing as the Jews knew it, or us.

[Aquila]

I found this interesting:

A Summary of Historical Reasons to Reject Tithing

For the following reasons which have been supported by many .. reputable authorities in this chapter and elsewhere in this book, tithing cannot be supported as a valid doctrine found in early post-biblical .. history.

One: It is certain that Jewish-Christians in Palestine continued to send tithes to the temple as part of their obedience to the law (Acts 15 and 21) at least until A.D. 70. Post-biblical history proves that most of these never abandoned the Mosaic Law, refused full fellowship with Gentile Christians, rejected Paul, later split into factions, and disappeared around the end of the fourth century.

Two: Jewish Christians, like Paul, who had been trained in the strict traditions of the Mosaic Law would have never accepted full-time support for teaching the Old Testament Sacred Writings concerning Christ.

Three: Jewish Christians viewed tithing as purely law, which they specifically ordered Gentile Christians not to obey (Acts 15 and 21).

Four: Jewish Christians were taught to earn their living through a trade and not depend on charity. Both Jewish and Christian sages were .. supported by the communities through support of their trade.

Five: The secular crafts and trades of many rabbis and later church leaders are recorded in history. Many church historians comment on the fact that the early church leaders sustained themselves by a trade (rather than by tithing). This is documented by numerous footnotes in this book, especially the chapter on First Corinthians 9, Acts 20, and this chapter.

Six: The church was early considered “un-licensed (or illegal?)” and it was .. considered an “outlaw” since approximately A.D. 80. The Romans required all citizens to register their livelihood and proof of sustenance. For at least the first two hundred plus years after Calvary, anybody claiming to be a full-time gospel worker would have been arrested as an insurrectionist who had no evident means of support such as a trade.

Seven: Since Christians were sporadically killed by mobs and the government for much of the first three centuries, it seems improbable that the earliest leaders would openly reveal themselves (by not having an obvious trade) that they were full-time church leaders.

Eight: When the New Testament was written, very few, if any, of the churches were organized into a ruling-bishop system which would require or sustain a full-time minister. The churches were too primitive, too small, too poor, and often had to hide from the authorities to meet. Church buildings did not exist because they would not have been tolerated until about A.D. 200 and did not flourish until after A.D. 260 before being destroyed again in 303.[11] Persecution varied widely around the Roman Empire.

Nine: The earliest churches did not distinguish between “clergy” and “laity” for several centuries. Gifted lay members preached and carried out other functions which were later restricted to full-time ordained clergy. For example, a gifted “administrator” may have been in charge while another gifted person “preached” and another gifted person “taught” the Word. This fact would preclude giving tithes when numerous laity exercised their spiritual gifts.

Ten: It is very likely that even slaves held leadership roles as elders and bishops in the early church. The noted scholar, F. F. Bruce, says that “Pius, bishop of the Roman church towards the middle of the second century, if not a slave himself, was at any rate the brother of a slave; and Callistus, bishop of the same church in the early part of the third century, was an ex-slave”.[12] Slaves would certainly not accept tithes for their sustenance!

Eleven: Perhaps the best post-biblical argument against tithing in the Ante-Nicean church is the church’s overall attitude towards Christian virtues, ethics, poverty, and asceticism. To state it plainly, “Poverty was .. considered a virtue, especially among the clergy!” While still retaining fresh memories of the first apostles and disciples, the miracles of the first .. century, and, while still expecting a soon return of Jesus Christ, the pre-Constantine (pre-A.D. 325) church, was a charity organization which received offerings only to serve the poor, widows, and orphans of society. See Philip Schaff’s detailed comments in my chapter on First Corinthians 9.

Source: http://tithing-russkelly.com/id15.html

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

In that case that wouldn't be a tithe, but a tax. Considering the church ran the world. That's communism, not to be confused with tithing as the Jews knew it, or us.

The OT tithe was an agrarian land tax required of the nation and codified in the Law of Moses. The Catholic church revived it in the 6th century.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I found this interesting

You found it interesting? How many times can you guess that you have used that phrase to introduce a post?

I'm not looking for your Googled responses.

How about explaining in detail the tithing issue which was debated at Council of Macon in 585 A.D. Also, please don't post the abbreviated clip from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Tell me what you know.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The OT tithe was an agrarian land tax required of the nation and codified in the Law of Moses. The Catholic church revived it in the 6th century.

Why did Pharisees tithe herbs,? Were all Pharisees herbalists? Or did Jesus just have a problem with Pharisees who were herbalists?

[Aquila]

More information on the history of tithing:

The Church from the Fourth Century until the Eighth Century

The church in the first centuries had a very different use for money than the typical church today. Williston Walker reports that, in the year A.D. 251, the church of Rome under Bishop Grainelius had a membership of approximately 30,000 members and supported over 1,500 dependents. This amounts to one dependent per 20 members![13]



Although Cyprian tried to enforce his idea that church workers should not pursue secular trades, Walker comments, “By the middle of the third century the higher clergy were expected to give their whole time to the work of the ministry, yet even bishops sometimes shared in secular business, not always of a commendable character. The lower clergy could still engage in trade”.[14]

It may, or may not, be noteworthy that Schaff does not mention church “buildings” until the lapse of persecution between 260-303. It is unclear to what extent church edifices existed prior to this time. As long as Christians were blamed for almost every disaster such as famines, earthquakes, floods, battle losses, and barbarian invasions, the pagan population very often punished the church as its scapegoat and would have quickly destroyed highly visible and accessible structures associated with the church.



The Encyclopedia Americana says, “It [tithing] was not practiced in the early Christian church, but gradually became common by the 6th .. century.”[15] The statement assumes Cyprian’s failure in North Africa and probably means that tithing was not practiced “by enforcement of Church or secular law” until the 6th century.



The Catholic Encyclopedia (1912 edition only) says, “In the beginning .. [provision] was supplied by the spontaneous support of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of the conscience. The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the Canons of the Council of Macon in 585.”[16]



While it may appear that both the Encyclopedia Americana and the Catholic Encyclopedia ignore all of the tithing references made by Cyprian and the Constitutions of the Apostles as invalid, actually, they must be agreeing with the premise of this book that the early church did not teach tithing! When tithing was first re-introduced into the church, it was voluntary and was built on an erroneous comparison of the New Covenant bishop as a high priest to the Old Testament priesthood.



Centuries later, the church acquired wealth in the form of land. At first wealthy landowners donated land to the church for parishes, but retained the privileges of nominating the bishops and keeping the profits and tithes from the land in their own secular hands. Therefore, tithing soon became a source of abuse. Eventually, however, the church gained enough secular authority to regain appointment of its own priests and bishops again, along with keeping the tithes in the church. The church soon owned from one half to one fourth of the land in many European countries and enacted tithes from those who rented its lands.

Historians usually agree that, not until A.D. 567, five hundred and thirty seven (537) years after Calvary, did the Church’s first substantial attempt to enforce tithing under its own authority appear in history! The Council of Tours in 567 and the Council of Macon in 585 enacted regional church decrees for tithing and excommunication of non-tithers, but did not receive authority from the king to enforce collection through civil decrees. It is significant that tithing did not emerge historically until the church became powerful in the secular realm. Even at this late date tithes were still only food. Eventually the Roman Church even refused to administer last rites if it was not given wealth or land in wills.



Between 774 to 777 the Frankish king, Charlemagne, destroyed the Arian Lombard kingdom which separated his empire from northern Italy. After his defeat of the Lombards, Charlemagne’s unopposed rule included northern Italy and Rome. By quoting the Mosaic Law as its authority at a Church synod, the pope finally convinced Charlemagne to allow enforced agricultural tithing in support of the fast-growing parish system of churches. In 785 Pope Hadrian attempted to impose tithing on the Anglo-Saxons. In appreciation of his church support, on Christmas Day, A.D. 800, the pope crowned Charlemagne as Holy Roman Emperor, thus making official the renewed “Holy” Roman Empire.



In 906 King Edgar legally enforced food tithing in England. In 1067 and 1078, at the Church Councils of Gerona, and in 1215 at the Fourth Lateran Council, tithing was increasingly applied to all lands under Christian rule. All citizens, including Jews, were required to tithe to the Roman Catholic Church. A typical peasant was giving the first tithe of his land to his secular ruler or landlord (which was often the church) and a second tenth to the church outright. In 1179 the Third Lateran Council decreed that only the pope could release persons from the obligation to tithe, and he exempted the Crusaders.



For several centuries the right to collect agricultural tithes shifted back and forth between the Church and the secular authority –depending on which was the strongest power. Pope Innocent III (1198-1216), in order to strengthen and purify the church, ordered that tithes for the support of the church be given precedence over all other taxes, excluded all lay interference in church affairs, and prohibited any one man from drawing the income from more than one church office. Theologian Thomas Aquinas defended tithing by stating, “During the time of the New Law the authority of the Church has established the payment of tithes” (Summa Theologica, Vol. 3, The Second Part of the Second Part). He did use Genesis 14 and Melchizedek to substantiate his argument.



Exacting agricultural tithes from Jews became especially severe in England and Germanic countries. Beginning around the 14th century, Jews were not even allowed to own land in many nations. This forced the Jews off the land and many went into banking and commerce because those occupations and money were not included in tithing. In 1372 even the clergy in Germany revolted at having to pay tithes to the pope.



Not long after the Bible had been translated into the language of the common man, Otto Brumfels in 1524 proclaimed that the New Testament does not teach tithing. Later that century, Pope Gregory VII, in an effort to control secular ownership of tithes, once again outlawed lay ownership of tithes.



In 1714 the English Anglican exacted agricultural tithes from Roman Catholics and Presbyterians for the support of the Church of Ireland. Soon revolt became ripe in France. Some of the earliest stages of the French Revolution were actions which struck at the privileges and status of the Roman Catholic Church.

In 1789, tithes were abolished in France by the secular authority.



Other revolts against tithing followed. Between 1836 and 1850 tithing was mostly abolished in England. It was later commuted to a rental to be paid in cash. In 1868, as a result of agitation which began at least as far back as the 1830’s and which was pushed by Dissenters, the compulsory payment of local parish tithes for the maintenance of the church was abolished and was made purely voluntary. However, the final tithe rent charges were not abolished until 1936 in England.



In Canada, as late as 1868, the Fourth Council of Quebec declared that tithing was mandatory. For a while tithes were even made mandatory in the French lands of the New World until the territory was sold in the Louisiana Purchase. In 1871 tithes were abolished in Ireland. In 1887 they ended in Italy. In West Germany residents must formally renounce church membership in order to avoid mandatory church taxation. Elsewhere, the Eastern Orthodox Church has never accepted tithing and its members have never practiced it. The Roman Catholic Church still prescribes tithes in countries where they are sanctioned by law, and some Protestant bodies still consider tithes obligatory.



Today most religious bodies have abandoned the practice of compulsory tithing, particularly in the United States, where no system of tithing was ever generally employed after the American Revolution. Tithing was never a legal requirement in the United States. Nevertheless, members of certain churches, including the Latter Day Saints and Seventh-Day Adventists are required to tithe and some Christians in other churches do so voluntarily. Southern Baptists define tithing as an “expectation” and some of its churches are pushing to make tithing a requirement for membership (in addition to holding church offices). For further study, most books on church history briefly discuss the history of tithing since Bible times. As Europe slowly rejected church-state taxation and the divine right of kings, it also rejected enforced tithing to state-supported churches.

Relevant to this book, the biblical model of tithing best fits a church-state economy similar to Israel’s theocracy. History reveals that tithing became a “Christian” doctrine only after the Roman Catholic Church joined hands with secular and political forces. However, just as tithing was an unprofitable ordinance which never produced spiritual growth in national Israel under the Old Covenant, even so tithing never led to spiritual growth when used by Christians and was eventually forced into retirement a second time by state churches.

Both Roman Catholics and Protestants have been guilty of oppression and persecution regarding state mandated tithing laws. And, like Old Covenant tithing in national Israel, nothing good has ever resulted from such attempts to enforce tithing on another.



Note: The historical source material from this chapter has come from the following: Encyclopedia Americana; Encyclopedia Britannica; The Catholic Encyclopedia (1912 and New); Baker, A Summary of Christian History; Durant, The Reformation; Latourette, A History of the Christian Church; Qualben, A History of the Christian Church; Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2; and Walker, A History of the Christian Church. See Bibliography.

Source: http://tithing-russkelly.com/id15.html

[Evang.Benincasa]

I guess when Chris says he finds something interesting, it means he wants some poor soul to dissect someone else's webpage?