The catching away

[Bowas]

Some very excellent points have been made here concerning "the coming(s) of the Lord" So many of us have been taught it means only the return of Christ physically, without knowing Biblically, there have been many "comings of the Lord". That is not to say, the Lord has come physically many times rather it shows He is in control and His will was accomplished on the Earth by whatever means He so chose.
I believe an American song indicates this in the song "BATTLE HYMN OF THE REPUBLIC"

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;

Follow this link to read the entire words to the song and it is very clear the "coming of the Lord" is describe in many ways, but is not referring to the Physical coming of the Lord.
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/b/h/bhymnotr.htm

It is a recent Christian concept that the phrase, "The coming of the Lord" must always refer to His physical coming rather than Him executing His judgements and justice using mankind on the Earth here and now without a physical coming.

I do understand this song is not Bible, but the concept I am trying to present is a broader understanding of the phrase. (which by the way, is used similarily elsewhere in the Bible to describe very similar concepts as this song brings out)

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Bowas

Some very excellent points have been made here concerning "the coming(s) of the Lord" So many of us have been taught it means only the return of Christ physically, without knowing Biblically, there have been many "comings of the Lord". That is not to say, the Lord has come physically many times rather it shows He is in control and His will was accomplished on the Earth by whatever means He so chose.
I believe an American song indicates this in the song "BATTLE HYMN OF THE REPUBLIC"

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;

Follow this link to read the entire words to the song and it is very clear the "coming of the Lord" is describe in many ways, but is not referring to the Physical coming of the Lord.
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/b/h/bhymnotr.htm

It is a recent Christian concept that the phrase, "The coming of the Lord" must always refer to His physical coming rather than Him executing His judgements and justice using mankind on the Earth here and now without a physical coming.

I do understand this song is not Bible, but the concept I am trying to present is a broader understanding of the phrase. (which by the way, is used similarily elsewhere in the Bible to describe very similar concepts as this song brings out)

Good, BOWAS!

There is a song in my heart today,
Something I never had;
Jesus has taken my sins away,
O! say, but I’m glad.

Refrain

O! say, but I’m glad, I’m glad,
O! say, but I’m glad,
Jesus has come and my cup’s overrun;
O! say, but I’m glad.


He may not have yet come to everyone, but HE has come to me! And many
others. He came to me in Spirit as HE has in others. How else could HE be
IN us. Jesus told His disciples that He was WITH them BUT would be IN
them. How could He be IN them. IN Spirit, Christ IN you, the hope of glory.
The Kingdom of God would not be something they could see, but would be
like the wind. They would see the results of the Kingdom. It wouldn't come
with observation, but would be in you. Jesus couldn't get inside all in his
physical body. But would come back in Spirit and could be in them all in that
form. Spirit-form.

Doubting Thomas wouldn't believe except he saw JESUS. But when Jesus
showed him his side and hands a few days later, Thomas cried, "My Lord
and My God". Jesus told Thomas that he had believed because he
saw, but blessed are they which have not seen, yet have believed.
John 20:24-29

HE came unto his own and his own received him not. But to as many as
received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to
them that believe on his name:

Remember the first time he came, his own did not receive or believe he was
who he said he was. Now we still have those today that still will not believe
except they see him in phyical form. These are no different from those who
required a sign (Jesus said the Jews require a sign and the Greeks seek after
wisdom..
1Cor.1:22-

If I never see Him in flesh, I believe the Father (Spirit/God/Deity) came to
earth in the body of the Son. His name was called JESUS. (Immanuel, God
WITH us, Holy Ghost (Christ IN us). The Mighty GOD IN Christ Jesus. Deity
in humanity. If we have the Holy Ghost (Spirit) we have Deity IN humanity.
Yes, He was WITH those earthly disciples and after His ascension, He came IN
them, by the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, which would lead and guide them
into ALL TRUTH. Jesus Christ the same, yesterday and today and forever.
What is so difficult to understand about that.

Falla39

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I appreciate times like this when I can consider another view, and after having done so many times once again try to clarify the entire picture in my own heart. So let me just work my way through this, and nobody gets anything out of it but me, that will still satisfy me. lol



Again, these are only my thoughts, and I present them for anyone's consideration. But I have long considered this point, and noted to others that this note of returning to the ground was only mentioned amongst the curses indicating it was not God's original plan.



When we use the word RESURRECTION, we are meant to literally realize it means resurgence. That occurs only with something that once lived and is dead. To resurge or resurrect something, means that which was once alive and is now dead, is made alive a second time. The soul and spirit was already dead spiritually in sin and revived in salvation. So only the body is the thing not yet resurrected.

Now, the main point of 1 Cor 15 is encapsulated in this verse:

1 Corinthians 15:35 KJV (35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

It is about bodies.

And the next major overall point is noted here:

1 Corinthians 15:42 KJV (42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

The "resurrection" is mentioned here, of the body. It would not say RESURRECTION if the body was never meant to come alive again. And note that the same "IT" that is sown is the "IT" that is raised. That is how it qualifies as a "resurrection". We do not read of "A" being sown and "B" raised. But we do read of "A" being sown in one form and "A" being raised in a different form. This would correspond to the mortal body buried and changed into an immortal body.

I think folks get bogged down when they only focus on 1 Cor 15:37-50. It speaks of DIFFERENT BODIES. We are buried with ONE KIND OF BODY and raised with ANOTHER BODY. But the reason I said it is the same body, only changed to be raised in a different form of body is because I not only focus on verses 37-50 but realize that this is qualified in verses 51-54. A CHANGE is involved.

Otherwise there is a dilemma of seeing different bodies (plural) in view for one person along with the thought that IT is sown and IT is raised, indicating the SAME BODY. But this dilemma is explained when we read verses 50-54 altogether.

The reason we read of different bodies is because a mortal and immortal body is noted.

And the reason we read the same "IT" that is sown is the "IT" that is raised, is because the mortal one CHANGES INTO the immortal one, and is not EXCHANGED for an separate and distinct immortal one.



But, as you know, in my view this violates the words of 1 Cor 15;50-53 and the emphasis on the word CHANGED. I see no CHANGE in FP in anything. Just EXchange.

Also, I debated before using the idea that 2 Cor 5 comes into play. The body is considered a HOUSE or CONTAINER. And the thought of containers holding non-physical entities is emphasized in 2 Cor 5. And though I never got an answer from those with whom I spoke about this before, where is the concept of CONTAINING in the idea of a non-physical body that rises along with the non-physical soul and spirit of a saint? The physical body is the container. That thought is absent from the picture if fp is true.

Also, Paul stated in 2 Cor 5:8 that absence from the body means presence with the Lord. This is absence from a CONTAINER, making verse 3 so relevant when it mentions we are NAKED without a house or body container. Forgetting for the moment that there is no container if there is no physical body, We would not be absent from body if we were given another body that is unseen upon death. But Paul plainly said we are absent from body -- any kind of body - when we die. And this also refutes the FP idea that souls slept before AD70 since Paul wrote this before AD70 and indicated he would not sleep in soul if he died then.

Incidentally, All these questions were never answered by fp's I spoke with, and I would not accept FP if I were them and they could not answer them.

Most fp's simply got sarcastic with me and personal, and I have never seen that with godsdrummer, thankfully. It is not personal, just an objective discussion.



Again, that was spoken of in the curses, and the curse is lifted in stages to fullness by the time we are fully redeemed. Romans 8 mentions the redemption of our bodies. What I mean by in part in stages is that redemption saw man freed from the curse, but not all the curses as soon as one is saved. Women still travail in childbirth. We still work. We still go to the grave. But the curse is somewhat removed spiritually. However, since Adam not only brought spiritual pain to man, the physical curses will one day be fully gone as well. It's like we have the spiritual now and get the physical at resurrection (resurgence) of our bodies. And since souls do not lay in graves, but only bodies, seeing that a person's soul leaves the body and is absent from it (2 Cor 5:8) upon death, which could be in a car, in a bed, in a hospital, etc., that which comes from the graves is THE BODY.



It mentions the dead first then the living. We have to compare this with 1 Cor 15. As with 1 Thess 4, the dead and living are distinguished in two distinct experiences. The dead rise first in 1 Thess 4 and the dead are in a state when their bodies change that the living are not. This gives rise to the thought that not all will die (sleep) but all will be changed. If the resurrection trumpet sounds at one single moment, which is what 1 Cor 15 stated, there will be some dead and some not yet dead but still alive. And if everyone's body changes from mortal to immortal at that trump, then those who did not yet die will never die. Hence, not all will die but all will be changed.



The actual CHANGE is not the rapture. Agreed. But the rapture does occur when the change occurs due to the information provided in 1 Thess 4. Again, both accounts mention the dead and the living experiencing a change (noted in 1 Cor 15) and experiencing a rapture (noted in 1 Thess 4). We are meant to put both accounts together. 1 Cor 15 is only speaking of BODIES RESURGING - having lived, then died and made to live a second time. There is no resurging/resurrecting of the body in FP. There is also not CHANGE of something from a mortal state to an immortal state in FP. So, to me, it flies in the face of what 1 Cor 15, 2 COr 5 and 1 Thess 4 say.

Also Phil 3:21 says our bodies shall be fashioned like unto His glorious body, and since His was physically mortal and WAS CHANGED to be physically immortal, so shall our own!

Again, this may only benefit myself in sorting things more clearly in my mind. Maybe I should have just wrote this for my own records!

Godsdrummer you are a class man. We just agree to disagree here, perhaps.

Mike
you make some interesting points that as I am studying I will take into consideration and get back to you either here or your email depending on how long it takes me. I will say this as I was reading through this response there were several things that did come to mind in response to your thoughts and I will try to address them the best I can. As you understand I am on a journey here there are point I agree with in both fp and pp and thier are points I disagree with. The one thing that seems to be biggest to me is the fact that to me all prophecy in scripture is fulfilled. There are no primary reasons I feel this way other than it feels right to me. Yet I will not try to make things fit one way or the other I must let God give it to me on my own.

Thanks agian for the input will get back to you soon
Godsdrummer

[easter]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mike
you make some interesting points that as I am studying I will take into consideration and get back to you either here or your email depending on how long it takes me. I will say this as I was reading through this response there were several things that did come to mind in response to your thoughts and I will try to address them the best I can. As you understand I am on a journey here there are point I agree with in both fp and pp and thier are points I disagree with. The one thing that seems to be biggest to me is the fact that to me all prophecy in scripture is fulfilled. There are no primary reasons I feel this way other than it feels right to me. Yet I will not try to make things fit one way or the other I must let God give it to me on my own.

Thanks agian for the input will get back to you soon
Godsdrummer

All prophecy in scripture"HAS NOT" been fulfilled
Read Isaiah 17
Read Ezekiel 37
read Ezekiel 38

[Sister Alvear]

One of the marks of a true christian is to know how to disagree and still be friends...love you folks.

[easter]

There are"TWO TYPES OF RESURRECTIONS"

There is the Spiritual Resurrection...
Spiritual resurrection is that of the spirit being quickened from death in trespasses and sins.This kind of resurrection causes one to be renewed in the glorious likeness of God as taught in
Ephesians 2:1-6
Ephesians 5:14
Ephesians 4:12-24
Colossians 3:10
This Spiritual resurrection only takes place in this life.When a child of God dies his Spirit that was quickened from death in this life(SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION) goes to the Father Ecclesiastes 12:7

When physcial death comes,all possibility of such spiritual resurrection has passed Hebrews 9:27

At death the resurrected spirit goes to Paradise Luke 23:43

So all that are dead in Christ have been resurrected Spiritually.

Then when Jesus comes back 1 Thessalonians 4 He brings those resurrected spirits back with him and that is when they will receive a glorified body.
Then we who are alive and remain will also change and receive a glorified body and we will be caught up(THE DEAD IN CHRIST FIRST AND THEN THE ONES WHO ARE ALIVE AND CHANGED WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD

This is the FIRST PHYSCIAL RESURRECTION

The SECOND RESURRECTION IS ONLY FOR THOSE WHO DIED LOST(SPIRITUALLY DEAD)Revelation 20:4-6

[easter]

Revelation 1:7 Look he is coming with the clouds,and every eye will see him,even those who pierced him,and all the people of the earth will mourn because of him.
The ones who pierced him!These are not literally the ones who pierced him but the unbelievers at his return that is why the scripture says that the people will mourn because of him and we know this is meaning the unbelievers because God's children are not going to be mourning because of Jesus's return.

Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky,and all the nations of the earth will mourn.They will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky,with power and great glory.

Now we know that Jesus has already come into the hearts of the believers and by doing so we have been spiritually born.But there will be a physcial appearance of Jesus when he returns because there is so much scripture teaching on the fact that Jesus will return and every eye will behold him.

Ezek 30:3 For the day of the Lord is near-a day of clouds,a time of doom for the nations.

In Greek language of Revelation 1:7
"PEOPLE OF THE EARTH" is referred to as
in Greek "PASA HAI FULAI TEES GEES"
which literally means
"ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH"

The day of the Lord has not been reserved for Israel only.The DAY OF THE LORD also means THE wrath Of God and the wrath of God will be poured out on all the earth,all the nations of the earth,not just Israel only.Believing THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD was 70 AD is excusing all the other nations from God's wrath.
That day is still yet to come
Revelation 22:7 Behold I am coming soon!blessed is he who keeps the prophecy in this book.

Yes Jesus has come to each and every believer but there is a day coming that even the unbelievers will see him coming in the clouds.There is going to be a physcial appearance of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
For those of you who read and understand 1 Thessalonians 4 as the event of the Catching away then you also know that we who were caught up to the lord will be coming back with him and this will be when the unbelievers on this earth will see Jesus coming in the Clouds to rule and reign on this earth for a thousand years Revelation 20

[easter]

Also I would like to examine
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all,the righteous for the unrighteous,to bring you to God.He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,(19)through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison(20)who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.In it only a few people,eight in all,were saved through water,(21)and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removable of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God.

Now before the cross,spirits went down into the heart of the earth.Death held the spirits.Jesus went down in the heart of the earth and preached to those spirits and Jesus also took the keys of death and hell.The spirit of a child of God no longer goes to the heart of the earth.Death has no power over a child of God. John 11:25 And Jesus said to her,I am the resurrection and the life!He who believes in me will live,even though he dies.

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead,so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body,but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Some believe this was Noah with the spirit of Christ preaching to those in the days before the flood.
As scripture indicates this was the Lord upon death.He enter the heart of the earth and got his children out from under the power of death and Hades.Jesus has the power and authority over death.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,neither wilt thou suffer thine holy one to see corruption.
Peter was telling the folks that king David prophesied this in Psalms 110
King David knew that the coming messiah would indeed come rescue his spirit out of hades.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mike
you make some interesting points that as I am studying I will take into consideration and get back to you either here or your email depending on how long it takes me. I will say this as I was reading through this response there were several things that did come to mind in response to your thoughts and I will try to address them the best I can. As you understand I am on a journey here there are point I agree with in both fp and pp and thier are points I disagree with. The one thing that seems to be biggest to me is the fact that to me all prophecy in scripture is fulfilled. There are no primary reasons I feel this way other than it feels right to me. Yet I will not try to make things fit one way or the other I must let God give it to me on my own.

Thanks agian for the input will get back to you soon
Godsdrummer

I appreciate your attitude about all of this, brother. We each must be fully convinced in our own minds about any given issue, despite what others are persuaded of.

The issue of all being fulfilled has often been proposed to me by FP brethren using Jesus words speaking about how all things might be fulfilled. But I believe the context of that statement only regards Messiah coming to do the work of the cross. Other gospel variants of that phrase bring this out.

God bless!

[easter]

The word of God is truth but sometimes one can not find all of Rome"s history recorded in the word.Like names of all the emperors of Rome and such.So therefore one needs to get a Roman history book,so I did and found some information that I discovered while pouring over Rome's history.

Emperor Nero reigned from (54 AD-68 AD)
While Nero was in office"the first Jewish-Roman war started in 66 AD
Nero was the emperor that was responsible for the deaths of Peter and Paul.Also Nero committed suicide by driving a dagger in his throat.He died on June 9,68 AD

Titus succeeded as Emperor and ruled (68 AD-81 AD) When Titus became emperor to Rome the Romans were still in a war known as "The first Jewish-Roman War".Jerusalem along with the Temple was destroyed under Emperor Titus.He died from a fever in 81 AD.

Domitian became Emperor to Rome.He ruled from( 81 AD-96 AD)
Emperor Domitian started sending Christians into exile to a place called the island of Patmos.John was among the Christians exiled there.
John received the Revelation of Jesus Christ while he was on the island of Patmos.

Emperor Domitian was murdered in 96 AD.

Marcus Cocceius Nerva became Emperor to Rome in (96 AD-
Emperor Nerva ordered the release of the Christians who were in exile on Patmos.John was among the released prisoners of Patmos.John return to Ephesus and died in Ephesus.

So John wrote revelation during the reign of Emperor Domitian which was 81 AD-96 AD.

John's revelation from the Lord about future events was given after Emperor Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple.
This means the events such as the two witnesses and the Man of sin(The beast spoke of in Revelation could not possibly be talking about 70 AD but rather about events still to come.

If anyone would like to verify the history and who it was that destroyed Jerusalem and what Emperor sent John in to exile should get themselves a book on roman history or you could simply google it.
The Day of The Lord ,(The Beast(,the false prophet,(the two witnesses and the tribulation is yet in the future because the destruction of Jerusalem happened before john received the revelation from Jesus Christ.
Search it out.
Nero died before Jerusalem was even destroyed,Nero died in 68 AD
Titus is the one who destroyed Jerusalem
But it was the roman Emperor Domitian that exiled Christians to Patmos.Emperor Domitian reign started in 81 AD