Question?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

To determine the truth of a doctrine, that is, to know whether or not the teaching is in and from the Holy Spirit, certain factors must be considered before all else.

VS, I can't argue that any of these points are not true; but i can argue that they, the doctrines, often remove a believer from doing to postulating. I can't think of a single doctrine that modifies Love your neighbor as yourself in the slightest--let alone one that can be conclusively proven to the satisfaction of every believer. They are herrings (red herrings, or white herrings? ), and take one from Christ to division. Or at least that is all the fruit i witness from them. They do not function otherwise, or point to a better walk. If so, how so? Imo, when Herman enters, the Spirit leaves.

I mean, what will be the believer's reasoning for "why didn't you feed that guy? "Oh, well, the hermeneutics convinced me not to?"

[votivesoul]

The only real hermeneutics prescribed by the Bible is those innate to the Spirit of Truth. All else are man-made and therefore, unreliable.

If a believer is stuck in some ivory tower of theosophy, then I agree, they have missed it. The faith is to be practiced and lived, not considered and mentally dissected.

However, Jesus did say He came to bring a sword. There needs must be a certain level of division. That which is holy should be divided against and from that which is profane. False doctrine must be flagged and rejected and so, adherents to false doctrine automatically separate themselves from believers of true doctrine.

It HAS to be so, so that, as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 11:18-19, we can tell the heretics from those who are approved in doctrine.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The only real hermeneutics prescribed by the Bible is those innate to the Spirit of Truth. All else are man-made and therefore, unreliable.

If a believer is stuck in some ivory tower of theosophy, then I agree, they have missed it. The faith is to be practiced and lived, not considered and mentally dissected.

However, Jesus did say He came to bring a sword. There needs must be a certain level of division. That which is holy should be divided against and from that which is profane. False doctrine must be flagged and rejected and so, adherents to false doctrine automatically separate themselves from believers of true doctrine.

It HAS to be so, so that, as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 11:18-19, we can tell the heretics from those who are approved in doctrine.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The only real hermeneutics prescribed by the Bible is those innate to the Spirit of Truth. All else are man-made and therefore, unreliable.

If a believer is stuck in some ivory tower of theosophy, then I agree, they have missed it. The faith is to be practiced and lived, not considered and mentally dissected.

However, Jesus did say He came to bring a sword. There needs must be a certain level of division. That which is holy should be divided against and from that which is profane. False doctrine must be flagged and rejected and so, adherents to false doctrine automatically separate themselves from believers of true doctrine.

It HAS to be so, so that, as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 11:18-19, we can tell the heretics from those who are approved in doctrine.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The only real hermeneutics prescribed by the Bible is those innate to the Spirit of Truth. All else are man-made and therefore, unreliable.

If a believer is stuck in some ivory tower of theosophy, then I agree, they have missed it. The faith is to be practiced and lived, not considered and mentally dissected.

However, Jesus did say He came to bring a sword. There needs must be a certain level of division. That which is holy should be divided against and from that which is profane. False doctrine must be flagged and rejected and so, adherents to false doctrine automatically separate themselves from believers of true doctrine.

It HAS to be so, so that, as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 11:18-19, we can tell the heretics from those who are approved in doctrine.

i would have to say 'well said' to that, as long as the Spirit overarches the doctrine--which i'm afraid just doesn't seem to happen much in the real world. Or, it's easy to find abuse there. I personally find that every great man of God--meaning those whose names are household words--are considered heretics; and i consider myself one, by most peoples' reckoning...so maybe we have different definitions there. What is a heretic, if not someone who disregards a doctrine?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The only real hermeneutics prescribed by the Bible is those innate to the Spirit of Truth. All else are man-made and therefore, unreliable.

If a believer is stuck in some ivory tower of theosophy, then I agree, they have missed it. The faith is to be practiced and lived, not considered and mentally dissected.

However, Jesus did say He came to bring a sword. There needs must be a certain level of division. That which is holy should be divided against and from that which is profane. False doctrine must be flagged and rejected and so, adherents to false doctrine automatically separate themselves from believers of true doctrine.

It HAS to be so, so that, as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 11:18-19, we can tell the heretics from those who are approved in doctrine.

Maybe I should explain my thoughts this way. For every doctrine one hold important there is either a yes I believe that or a no I do not.

A typically oneness apostolic belief statement may look like:
1. Oneness?
2. Repentance required for salvation?
3. Baptism required for salvation?
4. The Holy Ghost required for salvation?
5. The evidence of the Holy Ghost is only speaking in tongues?
6. Jesus will come again and rapture the church?
7. Holiness standards are important?

Since all these questions can be answered yes or no then:

2^7 = 256. There are at least 256 different ways in which a person could believe differently than a typical apostolic on what apostolics deem important doctrines. If an apostolic person held 3 more doctrines they felt were important we would be up to 1024 ways a person could believe differently than them on just the important issues.

It's no wonder even small statements of faith can yield such division. When answering yes or no to a list of 10 important doctrines will yield over 1000 different sects I don't think we have much hope for doctrinal unity...

[shazeep]

boo-ya

[votivesoul]

In Hebrews 6:1-3, we have a sufficient statement of faith:

Repentance from dead works
Faith toward God
Diverse washings (or baptisms as the KJV reads)
Laying on of hands
Resurrection of the dead
Eternal Judgment

Taking a literal approach to these concepts ought to cause one to know exactly what one should believe.

But if someone can't rally around at least these doctrines of Christ, then how long before we realize that such people aren't interested in being followers of I AM?

Paul made it clear that it wasn't the doctrines of Christ or the Word in general, but rather the carnal mind, that causes all doctrinal division in the church. Babes in Christ and milk, right?

So, where this type of division occurs, someone in the mix is approaching the Word without the Spirit guiding them.

[votivesoul]

Ephesians 4:4-6 is another, additional statement of faith.

Seven "one" statements:

One Body
One Spirit
One Hope
One Lord
One Faith
One Baptism
One God and Father of All

If people can't agree on this, again, it's the carnal mind at work in some fashion.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Ephesians 4:4-6 is another, additional statement of faith.

Seven "one" statements:

One Body
One Spirit
One Hope
One Lord
One Faith
One Baptism
One God and Father of All

If people can't agree on this, again, it's the carnal mind at work in some fashion.

so then, you have no problem with my conception of one baptism, which is immersion in Christ (wondering "wwjd" all the time), and the speaking in tongues part being more like David Byrne and less like glossololia, right? The spiritual baptism.