The catching away

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Oh! Haha. Thanks for the clarification.

Mike and Easter
this is where I am at, at this time. I know that both of you will have thoughts on the subject, I have come to this conclution on my own for the most part. I have read some of the studies from TK Burke, Larry Smith and Mike Blume but more for confirmations of things I have seen. God bless

Let me try to put this into words that can be understood. First I understand that when die this body goes back to the earth from which it was formed.
Gen. 3:19
Job 34:15
Psa 104:29
Ecc. 3:20
As I understand this this body will not be regenerated, the body we are given when we die is completely spiritual like Christ was given after his resurection. Now when Jesus died and the graves were open verse 52 lets us know this happened after his resurection. This was the sign or wave offering if you please of the coming resurection of the saints to come. This was the only time I see that bodies of the dead will be raised in bodily form. These would have to be those that had died in the very recent time for they had to be those known to have died and be recognized by those that knew them.
The resurection that happened in 70ad would not have been written about for they would be the souls that were dead in Christ as Paul speaks of in Thess. and Corinthions. because our bodies don't come up from the grave. As the word tells us from the dust we came to the dust we will return.
So therefore when Paul speaks of the resurection in I Thesselonians 4 that when the coming of the Lord happens he shall raise the dead in Christ first. verse 17 does not specify that we will be caught up at that same time as one group.
Notice how Paul denotes this in 1 cor. 15.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The dead are raised together and then we are changed. What does this change do? Are we raptured? He says because of the change death is swallowed up in victory. In other words the rest of us will be together with the Lord when we pass from this life into the joy of the Lord.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
What did Jesus mean by these words. Lazarus was dead and brought to life. But those that are alive and believe shall never die, we go straight to be with the Lord.
Now I hope this covers the question asked as to why and how I believe.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Bro. Lafon.
Actually what I had in mind when I wrote my post was Bro. Blume's
post.
_________________
Bro. Blumes Quote:
Hebrews 10:20 KJV By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

So the spiritual veil was the flesh of Jesus. He is the door. The living door. This makes me think the reference to the veil was the actual one on earth in the temple that opened to indicate Christ's flesh was broken in death so we could enter through his death into the holiest.
_________________


Falla39

To me it is just so incedible how that God sent His Son into the world
that the world through him might be saved. God SO loved the world that
HE gave His Son, gift wrapped in a robe of flesh. When His Son was open-
ed up (his side) on the cross, out came blood and water. Jesus said it was
finished. The flesh was buried but what was in that flesh came out. If that
same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwell in us, it shall also quicken
our mortal bodies. The Spirit quickeneth, giveth life.

John 6: 62,63:
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words
that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The flesh (Son,humanity) had served it's purpose on earth. The Spirit would
soon be poured out into the world that whosoever believeth on His NAME
and is baptized, would be saved. When our purpose on earth is finished, we
too will leave the flesh behind. The dust (ground) will receive it and the soul
shall live on. Except those that never repented and have not the Spirit, they
simply will not be raised up. The Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, was
not in them. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Without the Spirit they are
none of His.

Let me say that I am not saying dogmatically, that my thoughts are 100%
right on target. Just thinking out loud, and based on scriptures that are
stored within me, that are recalled as I type.
After all, isn't this a discussion forum!

Falla39

[mfblume]

I appreciate times like this when I can consider another view, and after having done so many times once again try to clarify the entire picture in my own heart. So let me just work my way through this, and nobody gets anything out of it but me, that will still satisfy me. lol

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mike and Easter
this is where I am at, at this time. I know that both of you will have thoughts on the subject, I have come to this conclution on my own for the most part. I have read some of the studies from TK Burke, Larry Smith and Mike Blume but more for confirmations of things I have seen. God bless

Let me try to put this into words that can be understood. First I understand that when die this body goes back to the earth from which it was formed.
Gen. 3:19
Job 34:15
Psa 104:29
Ecc. 3:20

Again, these are only my thoughts, and I present them for anyone's consideration. But I have long considered this point, and noted to others that this note of returning to the ground was only mentioned amongst the curses indicating it was not God's original plan.

As I understand this this body will not be regenerated, the body we are given when we die is completely spiritual like Christ was given after his resurection.

When we use the word RESURRECTION, we are meant to literally realize it means resurgence. That occurs only with something that once lived and is dead. To resurge or resurrect something, means that which was once alive and is now dead, is made alive a second time. The soul and spirit was already dead spiritually in sin and revived in salvation. So only the body is the thing not yet resurrected.

Now, the main point of 1 Cor 15 is encapsulated in this verse:

1 Corinthians 15:35 KJV (35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

It is about bodies.

And the next major overall point is noted here:

1 Corinthians 15:42 KJV (42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

The "resurrection" is mentioned here, of the body. It would not say RESURRECTION if the body was never meant to come alive again. And note that the same "IT" that is sown is the "IT" that is raised. That is how it qualifies as a "resurrection". We do not read of "A" being sown and "B" raised. But we do read of "A" being sown in one form and "A" being raised in a different form. This would correspond to the mortal body buried and changed into an immortal body.

I think folks get bogged down when they only focus on 1 Cor 15:37-50. It speaks of DIFFERENT BODIES. We are buried with ONE KIND OF BODY and raised with ANOTHER BODY. But the reason I said it is the same body, only changed to be raised in a different form of body is because I not only focus on verses 37-50 but realize that this is qualified in verses 51-54. A CHANGE is involved.

Otherwise there is a dilemma of seeing different bodies (plural) in view for one person along with the thought that IT is sown and IT is raised, indicating the SAME BODY. But this dilemma is explained when we read verses 50-54 altogether.

The reason we read of different bodies is because a mortal and immortal body is noted.

And the reason we read the same "IT" that is sown is the "IT" that is raised, is because the mortal one CHANGES INTO the immortal one, and is not EXCHANGED for an separate and distinct immortal one.

Now when Jesus died and the graves were open verse 52 lets us know this happened after his resurection. This was the sign or wave offering if you please of the coming resurection of the saints to come. This was the only time I see that bodies of the dead will be raised in bodily form. These would have to be those that had died in the very recent time for they had to be those known to have died and be recognized by those that knew them.

But, as you know, in my view this violates the words of 1 Cor 15;50-53 and the emphasis on the word CHANGED. I see no CHANGE in FP in anything. Just EXchange.

Also, I debated before using the idea that 2 Cor 5 comes into play. The body is considered a HOUSE or CONTAINER. And the thought of containers holding non-physical entities is emphasized in 2 Cor 5. And though I never got an answer from those with whom I spoke about this before, where is the concept of CONTAINING in the idea of a non-physical body that rises along with the non-physical soul and spirit of a saint? The physical body is the container. That thought is absent from the picture if fp is true.

Also, Paul stated in 2 Cor 5:8 that absence from the body means presence with the Lord. This is absence from a CONTAINER, making verse 3 so relevant when it mentions we are NAKED without a house or body container. Forgetting for the moment that there is no container if there is no physical body, We would not be absent from body if we were given another body that is unseen upon death. But Paul plainly said we are absent from body -- any kind of body - when we die. And this also refutes the FP idea that souls slept before AD70 since Paul wrote this before AD70 and indicated he would not sleep in soul if he died then.

Incidentally, All these questions were never answered by fp's I spoke with, and I would not accept FP if I were them and they could not answer them.

Most fp's simply got sarcastic with me and personal, and I have never seen that with godsdrummer, thankfully. It is not personal, just an objective discussion.

The resurection that happened in 70ad would not have been written about for they would be the souls that were dead in Christ as Paul speaks of in Thess. and Corinthions. because our bodies don't come up from the grave. As the word tells us from the dust we came to the dust we will return.

Again, that was spoken of in the curses, and the curse is lifted in stages to fullness by the time we are fully redeemed. Romans 8 mentions the redemption of our bodies. What I mean by in part in stages is that redemption saw man freed from the curse, but not all the curses as soon as one is saved. Women still travail in childbirth. We still work. We still go to the grave. But the curse is somewhat removed spiritually. However, since Adam not only brought spiritual pain to man, the physical curses will one day be fully gone as well. It's like we have the spiritual now and get the physical at resurrection (resurgence) of our bodies. And since souls do not lay in graves, but only bodies, seeing that a person's soul leaves the body and is absent from it (2 Cor 5:8) upon death, which could be in a car, in a bed, in a hospital, etc., that which comes from the graves is THE BODY.

So therefore when Paul speaks of the resurection in I Thesselonians 4 that when the coming of the Lord happens he shall raise the dead in Christ first. verse 17 does not specify that we will be caught up at that same time as one group.

It mentions the dead first then the living. We have to compare this with 1 Cor 15. As with 1 Thess 4, the dead and living are distinguished in two distinct experiences. The dead rise first in 1 Thess 4 and the dead are in a state when their bodies change that the living are not. This gives rise to the thought that not all will die (sleep) but all will be changed. If the resurrection trumpet sounds at one single moment, which is what 1 Cor 15 stated, there will be some dead and some not yet dead but still alive. And if everyone's body changes from mortal to immortal at that trump, then those who did not yet die will never die. Hence, not all will die but all will be changed.

Notice how Paul denotes this in 1 cor. 15.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The dead are raised together and then we are changed.

What does this change do? Are we raptured? He says because of the change death is swallowed up in victory. In other words the rest of us will be together with the Lord when we pass from this life into the joy of the Lord.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
What did Jesus mean by these words. Lazarus was dead and brought to life. But those that are alive and believe shall never die, we go straight to be with the Lord.

Now I hope this covers the question asked as to why and how I believe.

The actual CHANGE is not the rapture. Agreed. But the rapture does occur when the change occurs due to the information provided in 1 Thess 4. Again, both accounts mention the dead and the living experiencing a change (noted in 1 Cor 15) and experiencing a rapture (noted in 1 Thess 4). We are meant to put both accounts together. 1 Cor 15 is only speaking of BODIES RESURGING - having lived, then died and made to live a second time. There is no resurging/resurrecting of the body in FP. There is also not CHANGE of something from a mortal state to an immortal state in FP. So, to me, it flies in the face of what 1 Cor 15, 2 COr 5 and 1 Thess 4 say.

Also Phil 3:21 says our bodies shall be fashioned like unto His glorious body, and since His was physically mortal and WAS CHANGED to be physically immortal, so shall our own!

Again, this may only benefit myself in sorting things more clearly in my mind. Maybe I should have just wrote this for my own records!

Godsdrummer you are a class man. We just agree to disagree here, perhaps.

[easter]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mike and Easter
this is where I am at, at this time. I know that both of you will have thoughts on the subject, I have come to this conclution on my own for the most part. I have read some of the studies from TK Burke, Larry Smith and Mike Blume but more for confirmations of things I have seen. God bless

Let me try to put this into words that can be understood. First I understand that when die this body goes back to the earth from which it was formed.
Gen. 3:19
Job 34:15
Psa 104:29
Ecc. 3:20
As I understand this this body will not be regenerated, the body we are given when we die is completely spiritual like Christ was given after his resurection. Now when Jesus died and the graves were open verse 52 lets us know this happened after his resurection. This was the sign or wave offering if you please of the coming resurection of the saints to come. This was the only time I see that bodies of the dead will be raised in bodily form. These would have to be those that had died in the very recent time for they had to be those known to have died and be recognized by those that knew them.
The resurection that happened in 70ad would not have been written about for they would be the souls that were dead in Christ as Paul speaks of in Thess. and Corinthions. because our bodies don't come up from the grave. As the word tells us from the dust we came to the dust we will return.
So therefore when Paul speaks of the resurection in I Thesselonians 4 that when the coming of the Lord happens he shall raise the dead in Christ first. verse 17 does not specify that we will be caught up at that same time as one group.
Notice how Paul denotes this in 1 cor. 15.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The dead are raised together and then we are changed. What does this change do? Are we raptured? He says because of the change death is swallowed up in victory. In other words the rest of us will be together with the Lord when we pass from this life into the joy of the Lord.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
What did Jesus mean by these words. Lazarus was dead and brought to life. But those that are alive and believe shall never die, we go straight to be with the Lord.
Now I hope this covers the question asked as to why and how I believe.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(15)For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(16)For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,with the voice of the archangel,and the trump of God;AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST.

The Parousia(The Catching Away,Rapture)is what Paul is speaking of here in these scriptures.The question I have is this...
If we receive our glorified body as soon as we die and enter into Paradise then when we come back with Jesus at the catching away as the above scripture indicates,then what would be the purpose of raising the dead in Christ if we already have a glorified body?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER with THEM in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air;and so shall we ever be with the LORD.

Now when Jesus brings the spirits of the ones who are dead in Christ back with him,the dead in Christ will rise first, THIS IS THE FIRST RESSURECTION and the dead in Christ who rise,well this is when they receive their glorified body, raised incorruptible.The earthly body was planted as like a seed and is raised incorruptible.Then we who are alive will be caught up (TOGETHER) the word together indicates that there is no time lapse between the raising of the dead and the gathering of the elect.Now this will all happen in an TWINKLING OF AN EYE!
If anyone knows about seed planting(gardening) then you know that in order to grow something,one must plant a seed.This planted seed will come up out of the ground but not like the seed that was planted,but in order to get the results one must plant the seed.Does this mean God has to have a planted body to create a Glorified body?The ones who are alive and remain will be changed,so NO God does not need a planted body but the physcial body of both the dead and alive,are linked somehow to the glorified body of both the dead and the living.Christian scientist think that DNA is a link because we all have our own unique DNA.
To ponder on questions such as these(DNA) is like wondering why did God not kill Satan to begin with instead of throwing him to the earth?Ever wonder that?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by easter

If we receive our glorified body as soon as we die and enter into Paradise then when we come back with Jesus at the catching away as the above scripture indicates,then what would be the purpose of raising the dead in Christ if we already have a glorified body?

I do not think I am misrepresenting FP, but godsdrummer can correct me on this: FP's believe the 1 Thess 4 experienced was AD70 in a raising of sleeping souls whereas souls do not sleep any more since then. 1 Thess 4, to them, will not be in our future.

Now when Jesus brings the spirits of the ones who are dead in Christ back with him,the dead in Christ will rise first, THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION and the dead in Christ who rise,well this is when they receive their glorified body, raised incorruptible.The earthly body was planted as like a seed and is raised incorruptible.Then we who are alive will be caught up (TOGETHER) the word together indicates that there is no time lapse between the raising of the dead and the gathering of the elect.Now this will all happen in an TWINKLING OF AN EYE!

In my view, saying 1 Cor 15 is the first resurrection is not actually stated in 1 Cor 15. It is an interpretation of what Rev 20 is speaking about. I claim Rev 20 is not speaking about 1 Cor 15, so I would not say 1 Cor 15 is the first resurrection. I believe the first is salvation and the second resurrection is 1 Cor 15's resurrection of the body.

[easter]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I do not think I am misrepresenting FP, but godsdrummer can correct me on this: FP's believe the 1 Thess 4 experienced was AD70 in a raising of sleeping souls whereas souls do not sleep any more since then. 1 Thess 4, to them, will not be in our future.



In my view, saying 1 Cor 15 is the first resurrection is not actually stated in 1 Cor 15. It is an interpretation of what Rev 20 is speaking about. I claim Rev 20 is not speaking about 1 Cor 15, so I would not say 1 Cor 15 is the first resurrection. I believe the first is salvation and the second resurrection is 1 Cor 15's resurrection of the body.

I don't believe the souls have ever been in a state of "Soul Sleep" even before the Cross.The spirit of man before the Cross went into the heart of the earth to a place called Sheol
READ Luke 16:19-31

Jesus went down into the heart of the earth and preached to those spirits who were held in prisoned by death
Read 1 Peter 3:18-19
Jesus now holds those keys to death and hell.
The spirit of man has never been in a state of nothingness.

Now as far as Matthew 27 is concerned,I stated before that one can only speculate as to the exact nature of the dead saints that came out of their tombs.We have no other scripture and we can not say that the saints had a glorified body or if they were simply as with Lazarus,restored back in their earthly body and if that is the case it certainly would not be beyond the Lord's ability to do so.

I believe the scripture in 1 Thessalonians 4 is the First Resurrection and I also believe through the scripture that this event has not taken place since the folks on this earth who were/are alive have not been changed and have not been caught up in the air to meet the Lord.So basing that on scripture then we know that the resurrection of the dead in Christ has not occurred as up to date.
After the cross, the spirit of man no longer goes down into the heart of the earth.The spirit of man is no longer seperated from the Father,upon death the spirit of a child of God goes to Paradise.
The first resurrection will occur at the timing of the Catching away.
Read Revelation 20:4-6
There is more then one resurrection!
1 Cor 15:23 Tells us the first resurrection will take place at Christ's coming 1 Thessalonians 4

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by easter

I don't believe the souls have ever been in a state of "Soul Sleep" even before the Cross.The spirit of man before the Cross went into the heart of the earth to a place called Sheol
READ Luke 16:19-31

Amen. I agree perfectly. When the bible said the dead know not anything, the context was knowing the things occurring in this world. Not that they slept.

Jesus went down into the heart of the earth and preached to those spirits who were held in prisoned by death
Read 1 Peter 3:18-19
Jesus now holds those keys to death and hell.
The spirit of man has never been in a state of nothingness.

Did you get my note about how the spirits in prison were actually the souls Noah preached to before they died and went to hell? Noah had the spirit of Christ upon him in his preaching to the very souls who later died and went to hell due to disobedience. So I do not think Peter is talking about Jesus actually preaching to spirits of people who were dead.

Anyway...

Now as far as Matthew 27 is concerned,I stated before that one can only speculate as to the exact nature of the dead saints that came out of their tombs.We have no other scripture and we can not say that the saints had a glorified body or if they were simply as with Lazarus,restored back in their earthly body and if that is the case it certainly would not be beyond the Lord's ability to do so.

I agree.

I believe the scripture in 1 Thessalonians 4 is the First Resurrection and I also believe through the scripture that this event has not taken place since the folks on this earth who were/are alive have not been changed and have not been caught up in the air to meet the Lord.So basing that on scripture then we know that the resurrection of the dead in Christ has not occurred as up to date.

I do not believe it is the first resurrection, but I agree it has not taken place yet. Although they mention resurrection, 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 do not use the phrase FIRST RESURRECTION. Only Rev 20 uses that phrase. And Jesus said something which makes me think the first resurrection is salvation and the second one is for physical bodies. Gotta go by what Jesus said.

After the cross, the spirit of man no longer goes down into the heart of the earth.The spirit of man is no longer seperated from the Father,upon death the spirit of a child of God goes to Paradise.
The first resurrection will occur at the timing of the Catching away.
Read Revelation 20:4-6
There is more then one resurrection!

There is a first resurrection and a second one. But I believe they are what Jesus said Himself in John 5. Notice the first one does not mention graves.

FIRST RESURRECTION = SALVATION

John 5:25-29 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

SECOND RESURRECTION = BODIES FROM GRAVES

(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Salvation is being alive from the dead (Romans 6:13, Eph 2:1; Col 3:1). And we are said to be seated with Christ in heavenly places when we are saved which is what Rev 20 says when it mentions those in the first resurrection (salvation) ruling with Christ (Ep 2:5-6; Rev 20:4). Like I said, Jesus already spoiled the devil after He bound Him (Col 2:15; Matt 12:29), which is seen in Rev 20 where Jesus BOUND the devil.

1 Cor 15:23 Tells us the first resurrection will take place at Christ's coming 1 Thessalonians 4

Not the first resurrection, but resurrection of the body, yes.

[Scott Hutchinson]

It has taken me some time to sort somethings out,it seems like bodies sleep and not souls.I understand there was a coming of Christ in judgement in 70.Ad or a coming of the judgement of Christ agains't those who rejected Christ and there is a final appearing of Christ,and a general resurrection or resurrection of the just and the unjust.

[easter]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

It has taken me some time to sort somethings out,it seems like bodies sleep and not souls.I understand there was a coming of Christ in judgement in 70.Ad or a coming of the judgement of Christ agains't those who rejected Christ and there is a final appearing of Christ,and a general resurrection or resurrection of the just and the unjust.

The destruction of Jerusalem may have been a judgement on Israel but I just do not think there was a coming of Christ in 70 AD.

When the babylons plundered and destroyed the Temple in the Old Testament we know this was a judgement from God.A "Coming of Christ" is different then a "Judgement from the Lord."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by easter

The destruction of Jerusalem may have been a judgement on Israel but I just do not think there was a coming of Christ in 70 AD.

When the babylons plundered and destroyed the Temple in the Old Testament we know this was a judgement from God.A "Coming of Christ" is different then a "Judgement from the Lord."

The bible referred specifically in Matthew to Jesus saying the vineyard is Jerusalem and the vinekeepers who killed the Lord's son as the pharisees, when Matt 21:40 said the LORD WOULD COME to the vineyard and take it and give it to another nation bringing forth fruits, and destroy those miserable vinekeepers. The pharisees knew Jesus spoke of them. And this was fulfilled in AD70. But Jesus said the LORD WOULD "COME". He used that term, easter. And it was fulfilled in AD70.

Matthew 21:40 KJV When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

Matthew 21:41 KJV They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Matthew 21:45 KJV And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

They knew THIS COMING would be against THEM, and not people thousands of years later. So we cannot dismiss Jesus Christ's own use of the term applying to AD70. He said COME, not us.