Born at faith?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by meBNme

Hey, is there a Bible version that reads like that? if so, what is it?
I think that is more accurate a translation than "....in the name of Jesus Christ for the remmision......."

I'm interested in comparing other scriptures to the KJV.

Here you go.

2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be immersed, every one of you, in the name of Yeshua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 2:39 For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all who are far off, even as many as the Lord our God will call to himself.” 2:40 With many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation!” Acts 2:38-40

Here is the version. One of many.

http://ebible.org/hnv/

[meBNme]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Shirley sounds like surely. Pelathais was rehashing an old, old joke.

uummm yeah..... I was going along with it......

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by meBNme

I dont know how Shirley got all involved in this, but she needs to take her curlers out and put something on besides that bathrobe.

Your post was certainly a broad brush, steriotyping, and inacurate because of it.
I reckon because I am a "Born of the water and of the spirit" type I fit under your brush here. But dude! seriosly, quit eatin bitter pie! I'm guessing your wingtips are no more sinfull and damning to hell than my creme colored stacy adams' with gold colored buckle.

mBNm, you must have missed the thread with the Florsheim slip ons being touted as more holy than wing tips. That's where we learned about waxed tipped shoe laces and the evils of inappropriate bobby pins.

Originally Posted by meBNme

And if you want your face just as hairy as your armpit, go right ahead man, grow it till it doubles as a tie. I'm not aware of a scripture that says that makes you hellbound.

Thanks, you show a very liberal spirit there. I actually grew my beard to show that I am no longer under allegience to the Pope in Rome. As a minister in the UPCI I was forced to use only a Bible that had a New Testamentthat had been sactioned by the Roman Catholic ecumenical councils. The Old Testament, as I learned over the years wasn't even the same one that the Apostles used.

So, when I learned that all Christian clergy are commanded to shave their faces smooth like a woman it really shook me up. Looking a little further I realized that what they really wanted was for all ministers to look like young altar boys. That made me sqeemish.

So yes! A face that looks like an armpit is prefered to one that violates my God-given masculine gender role or worse, makes me look like a victim of sodomy.

So which reason do you chose for a going against nature and having a smooth face like a woman's? Just wondering.

Originally Posted by meBNme

Hey, if you watch TV and go to ball games, big deal. Just because I dont share the same personal standard prefferances as you does not mean I fit your steriotype of some hard nosed "yer goin ta burn in hayull faar!!!!" type.

So yeah, I agree that your post was doing some of the same stuff you speak out against others in your steriotype for doing.

I've always wondered why it is that the people who run the UPC's (just to pick on one OP org) standards police and govern "what's right..." (and I obviously don't mean our officials, but the people our officials are afraid of) - I've wondered why these folks get a free pass to be real sour pusses and will bitterly attack their own brethren in the worst ways; but anyone who stands up to them is called "bitter" and silenced.

Used to be that standing up to a bully was considered a "good thing."

Originally Posted by meBNme

You know what? Even if you voted for Hitlary Rotten Clinton I wouldnt say you were a hellbound unbeliever. .......I may say you lost yer everluvin MIND, but thats a different thing.

You of course want me to respond to your broad brush with a swipe of my own... but what's the point? I hit a nerve, that's enough for me. I mean you no harm... but why was that nerve so close to the drill? A little "truth" decay?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

Thanks to all who have voted thus far.

I'll define the term "converts to faith" here as I did in the other poll:

I mean is a man born of the Spirit the moment his heart converts from unbelief to belief (faith) in Christ?

At the conversion of the heart to Christ. The moment the heart is awakened to an acceptance of Christ. At this moment is the heart born of the Spirit?

Hope this helped, if not, please feel free to ask for further clarification.

Pelathais, I hear you, Bro.

I don't know. A conversion is a total change from one thing to another, not merely a change in beliefs. A lot of three steppers would probably say too that a person's heart is not fully converted to faith in Christ until they gave been baptized with the Spirit. That's why I asked you to define this....

I mean...an Atheist can convert to Islam. A Muslim can convert to Roman Catholicisim.

At the moment a person has faith, genuine faith, are they justified? Are they also regenerated? Are they also forgiven or cleansed? Before Repentance? Are they sanctified at that point? Are they really converted (changed in heart) or are they just changed in opinion?

And does having been justified mean that a person is automatically saved or are they simple restored to a point where they can be saved?

Faith is very powerful and I am inclined to believe that if a person has genuine faith that they can be saved before water baptism, but that it is not the normative biblical procedure. And they must still obey the command to be baptized or they are sinning.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by meBNme

Hey, is there a Bible version that reads like that? if so, what is it?
I think that is more accurate a translation than "....in the name of Jesus Christ for the remmision......."

I'm interested in comparing other scriptures to the KJV.

Hebrew Names Version
Act 2:38 Kefa said to them, "Repent, and be immersed, every one of you, in the name of Yeshua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[Adino]

Curious, do many of you deny he that believes is passed from death unto life? (John 5:24)

Is the man awakened to faith still spiritually dead? (Night of the living spiritually dead?)

Can a man say Jesus is Lord without having been enabled by the Spirit? (1Cor 12:3)

[Adino]

Prax said:

..A lot of three steppers would probably say too that a person's heart is not fully converted to faith in Christ until they have been baptized with the Spirit.

I'd agree. One cannot be present without the other.

Of course, to clarify.... Spirit baptism has nothing to do with a tongues experience in my understanding.

[Michael The Disciple]

Here is the reason we know a man has not the Spirit automatically when he believes.

12: But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13: Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14: Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17: Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. Acts 8:12-17

When these scriptures vanish away from the Bible we can begin to discuss men automatically receivng the Spirit as soon as they believe.

These people in the book of Acts BELIEVED. But they had NOT received the Spirit. It was AFTER they believed (in point of time) that they received.

Confirmed here:

12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph. 1:12-13

[Adino]

To your exhibit A -

Luke is following the expansion of the Church by following first the Gospel message preached to areas outlined in Acts 1:8, and by recording signs following which confirmed the acceptance of that word.

There are many operations of the Spirit, but one Spirit. These workings of the Spirit are all "received." The Spirit quickens. The Spirit blesses. The Spirit overwhelms. The Spirit guides. The Spirit fills to the point of manifestation. The Spirit imparts spiritual gifts.

It is the last two on this list which are of interest to the Samaria account. It was the practice of the Church leadership to lay hands on people to "impart.. some spiritual gift" (Romans 1:11; Hebrews 6:2).

1Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

It can be argued that this is the spiritual reception being spoken of in Acts 8, especially when we see Simon wanting to purchase the "gift of impartation" as it were.

Act 8:18-19 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

I would contend that the Spirit is received by the hearing of faith (Galatians 3:2,5) and we receive subsequent workings of that self-same Spirit throughout our Christian walk. This is not to say we receive the Spirit in increments, but simply to say that the Spirit which began living in us at the moment of faith becomes more and more manifest in our lives as we learn to yield more and more to its influence within us or as God sees fit to manifest himself through us.

To your exhibit B -

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (KJV)

Eph 1:13 in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also believing you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, (LITV)

Eph 1:13 You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in him you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (ISV)

I believe you are mistaken to demand a length of time between the moment of faith and the sealing of the Spirit. We have at best, a theological sequence which does not necessitate a chronological sequence.

I point back to Galatians 3:2 and 5 which says the Spirit is received by the hearing of faith.

Gal 3:2,5 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? .... 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[Adino]

Again, do many of you deny he that believes is passed from death unto life? (John 5:24)

Is the man awakened to faith still spiritually dead?

Can a man say Jesus is Lord without having been enabled by the Spirit? (1Cor 12:3)