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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #31  
Old 01-21-2008, 02:29 PM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy View Post
Highly Recommend this book for this subject--a real Eye opener on the buildings we call church--a must read--

http://www.paganchristianity.org/
I assume I already have this book.

I have Frank Viola's book entitled "Pagan Christianity" but the cover is very different.

Update:
I just went to ptmin.org and the book you have shown is the same book but it has been revised and updated.

I wish I knew what the differences were. I might buy the new one if I knew that the revisions and updates were worth the purchase price.

But... in any case... I will reiterate your sentiment... Frank Viola's book "Pagan Christianity" is an excellent book.
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  #32  
Old 01-21-2008, 03:25 PM
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ChristopherHall ChristopherHall is offline
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Awesome stuff here bros.
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"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
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  #33  
Old 01-21-2008, 03:39 PM
Rudy Rudy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
Awesome stuff here bros.
This awesome stuff here = freedom and purpose.
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http://www.paganchristianity.org


Go here on tithing----->

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

If it is God's will for your illness then why are you seeking medical attention to get rid of it?
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  #34  
Old 01-21-2008, 04:07 PM
Rudy Rudy is offline
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Here is an interesting video on personal interviews about the original purpose and plan for the Body of Christ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJR_...eature=related
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http://www.paganchristianity.org


Go here on tithing----->

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

If it is God's will for your illness then why are you seeking medical attention to get rid of it?
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  #35  
Old 01-21-2008, 05:19 PM
Rudy Rudy is offline
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Originally Posted by keith4him View Post
Can't agrue with the gist of your posting, house churches are the biblical model, but sadly it will be slow to catch on here, to use a Wolfgang Simson analogy. It is like someone has been making Xerox copies and no body never questioned to see if the original copy is the right one.

The current, pastor, building centered ministry with a de-mobilized laity that meets for special services was the model they told me to run with out of Bible College, but as I go older I questioned it effectiveness.

Pastor-limits saints ministry and makes them passive with three goals, pray, pay and obey.

Building Centered-leads to the idea that much of what God does only happens within the four walls of a designated building which limits God doing anything or very little outside of that model.

Special Structured Services-prohibits the I Cor. 14:26 type of ministry from happening.

But alas, after reading this it only makes me depressed, longing so much to see this reality, but seems so far away, a pipe dream.
There must be birthing pains first brother.
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http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

If it is God's will for your illness then why are you seeking medical attention to get rid of it?
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  #36  
Old 01-22-2008, 10:39 AM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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I know these have been posted before but I think they bear repeating from time to time.

Fifteen Theses towards a Re-Incarnation of Church


1. Church is a Way of Life, not a series of religious meetings.

Before they where called Christians, followers of Christ have been called
”The Way”. One of the reasons was, that they have literally found ”the way to live.” The nature of Church is not reflected in a constant series of religious
meetings lead by professional clergy in holy rooms specially reserved to
experience Jesus, but in the prophetic way followers of Christ live their
everyday life in spiritual extended families as a vivid answer to the questions
society faces, at the place where it counts most: in their homes.

2. Time to change the system
In aligning itself to the religious patterns of the day, the historic Orthodox
Church after Constantine in the 4th century AD adopted a religious system
which was in essence Old Testament, complete with priests, altar, a Christian
temple (cathedral), frankincense and a Jewish, synagogue-style worship
pattern. The Roman Catholic Church went on to canonize the system. Luther
did reform the content of the gospel, but left the outer forms of ”church”
remarkably untouched; the Free-Churches freed the system from the State, the Baptists then baptized it, the Quakers dry-cleaned it, the Salvation Army put it into a uniform, the Pentecostals anointed it and the Charismatics renewed it, but until today nobody has really changed the superstructure. It is about time to do just that.

3. The Third Reformation.

In rediscovering the gospel of salvation by faith and grace alone, Luther
started to reform the Church through a reformation of theology. In the 18th
century through movements like the Moravians there was a recovery of a new
intimacy with God, which led to a reformation of spirituality, the Second
Reformation. Now God is touching the wineskins themselves, initiating a
Third Reformation, a reformation of structure.
4. From Church-Houses to house-churches
Since New Testament times, there is no such thing as ”a house of God”. At
the cost of his life, Stephen reminded unequivocally: God does not live in
temples made by human hands. The Church is the people of God. The
Church, therefore, was and is at home where people are at home: in ordinary
houses. There, the people of God:
share their lives in the power of the Holy Spirit,
have ”meatings,” that is, they eat when they meet;
they often do not even hesitate to sell private property and share material and spiritual blessings,
teach each other in real-life situations how to obey God’s word—
dialogue- and not professor-style,
pray and prophesy with each other,
baptize,
‘lose their face’ and their ego by confessing their sins,
regaining a new corporate identity by experiencing love, acceptance
and forgiveness.

5. The church has to become small in order to grow big
Most churches of today are simply too big to provide real fellowship. They
have too often become ”fellowships without fellowship.” The New Testament
Church was a mass of small groups, typically between 10 and 15 people. It
grew not upward into big congregations between 20 and 300 people filling a
cathedral and making real, mutual communication improbable. Instead, it
multiplied ”sidewards”—like organic cells—once these groups reached
around 15-20 people. Then, if possible, it drew all the Christians together into
citywide celebrations, as with Solomon’s Temple court in Jerusalem. The
traditional congregational church as we know it is, statistically speaking,
neither big nor beautiful, but rather a sad compromise, an overgrown housechurch and an under-grown celebration, often missing the dynamics of both.
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  #37  
Old 01-22-2008, 10:42 AM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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6. No church is led by a Pastor alone
The local church is not lead by a Pastor, but fathered by an Elder, a local
person of wisdom and reality. The local house-churches are then networked
into a movement by the combination of elders and members of the so-called
five-fold ministries (Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Evangelists and Teachers)
circulating ”from house to house,” whereby there is a special foundational
role to play for the apostolic and prophetic ministries (Eph. 2:20, and
4:11.12). A Pastor (shepherd) is a very necessary part of the whole team, but he cannot fulfill more than a part of the whole task of ”equipping the saints for the ministry,” and has to be complemented synergistically by the other four ministries in order to function properly.

7. The right pieces – fitted together in the wrong way

In doing a puzzle, we need to have the right original for the pieces, otherwise
the final product, the whole picture, turns out wrong, and the individual
pieces do not make much sense. This has happened to large parts of the
Christian world: we have all the right pieces, but have fitted them together
wrong, because of fear, tradition, religious jealousy and a power-and-control
mentality. As water is found in three forms—ice, water and steam—the five
ministries mentioned in Eph. 4:11-12, the Apostles, Prophets, Pastors,
Teachers and Evangelists are also found today, but not always in the right
forms and in the right places: they are often frozen to ice in the rigid system
of institutionalized Christianity; they sometimes exist as clear water; or they
have vanished like steam into the thin air of free-flying ministries and
”independent” churches, accountable to no-one. As it is best to water flowers
with the fluid version of water, these five equipping ministries will have to be
transformed back into new—and at the same time age-old—forms, so that the
whole spiritual organism can flourish and the individual ”ministers” can find
their proper role and place in the whole. That is one more reason why we
need to return back to the Maker’s original and blueprint for the Church.

8. God does not leave the Church in the hands of bureaucratic clergy
No expression of a New Testament church is ever led by just one professional
”holy man” doing the business of communicating with God and then feeding
some relatively passive religious consumers Moses-style. Christianity has
adopted this method from pagan religions, or at best from the Old Testament.
The heavy professionalisation of the church since Constantine has now been a pervasive influence long enough, dividing the people of God artificially intolaity and clergy. According to the New Testament (1 Tim. 2:5), ”there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
God simply does not bless religious professionals to force themselves in between people and God forever. The veil is torn, and God is allowing people
to access Himself directly through Jesus Christ, the only Way. To enable the
priesthood of all believers, the present system will have to change completely.
Bureaucracy is the most dubious of all administrative systems, because it
basically asks only two questions: yes or no. There is no room for spontaneity
and humanity, no room for real life. This may be OK for politics and
companies, but not the Church. God seems to be in the business of delivering
His Church from a Babylonian captivity of religious bureaucrats and
controlling spirits into the public domain, the hands of ordinary people made
extraordinary by God, who, like in the old days, may still smell of fish,
perfume and revolution.

9. Return from organized to organic forms of Christianity
The ”Body of Christ” is a vivid description of an organic, not an organized,
being. Church consists on its local level of a multitude of spiritual families,
which are organically related to each other as a network, where the way the
pieces are functioning together is an integral part of the message of the whole.
What has become a maximum of organization with a minimum of organism,
has to be changed into a minimum of organization to allow a maximum of
organism. Too much organization has, like a straightjacket, often choked the
organism for fear that something might go wrong. Fear is the opposite of
faith, and not exactly a Christian virtue. Fear wants to control, faith can trust.
Control, therefore, may be good, but trust is better. The Body of Christ is
entrusted by God into the hands of steward-minded people with a
supernatural charismatic gift to believe God that He is still in control, even if
they are not. A development of trust-related regional and national networks,
not a new arrangement of political ecumenism is necessary for organic forms
of Christianity to reemerge.

10. From worshipping our worship to worshipping God
The image of much of contemporary Christianity can be summarized, a bit
euphemistically, as holy people coming regularly to a holy place at a holy
day at a holy hour to participate in a holy ritual lead by a holy man dressed
in holy clothes against a holy fee. Since this regular performance-oriented enterprise called "worship service" requires a lot of organizational talent and
administrative bureaucracy to keep going, formalized and institutionalized
patterns developed quickly into rigid traditions. Statistically, a traditional 1-2
hour ”worship service” is very resource-hungry but actually produces very
little fruit in terms of discipling people, that is, in changed lives.
Economically speaking, it might be a "high input and low output" structure.
Traditionally, the desire to ”worship in the right way” has led to much
denominationalism, confessionalism and nominalism. This not only ignores
that Christians are called to ”worship in truth and in spirit,” not in cathedrals
holding songbooks, but also ignores that most of life is informal, and so is
Christianity as ”the Way of Life.” Do we need to change from being powerful
actors to start ”acting powerfully?”
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  #38  
Old 01-22-2008, 10:45 AM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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11. Stop bringing people to church, and start bringing the church to the people

The church is changing back from being a Come-structure to being again a
Go-structure. As one result, the Church needs to stop trying to bring people
”into the church,” and start bringing the Church to the people. The mission of
the Church will never be accomplished just by adding to the existing
structure; it will take nothing less than a mushrooming of the church through
spontaneous multiplication of itself into areas of the population of the world,
where Christ is not yet known.

12. Rediscovering the ”Lord's Supper” to be a real supper with real food

Church tradition has managed to ”celebrate the Lord's Supper” in a
homeopathic and deeply religious form, characteristically with a few drops of
wine, a tasteless cookie and a sad face. However, the ”Lord's Supper” was
actually more a substantial supper with a symbolic meaning, than a symbolic
supper with a substantial meaning. God is restoring eating back into our
meeting.

13. From Denominations to city-wide celebrations

Jesus called a universal movement, and what came was a series of religious
companies with global chains marketing their special brands of Christianity
and competing with each other. Through this branding of Christianity most of
Protestantism has, therefore, become politically insignificant and often more
concerned with traditional specialties and religious infighting than with
developing a collective testimony before the world. Jesus simply never asked people to organize themselves into denominations. In the early days of the
Church, Christians had a dual identity: they were truly His church and
vertically converted to God, and then organized themselves according to
geography, that is, converting also horizontally to each other on earth. This
means not only Christian neighbors organizing themselves into neighborhoodor
house-churches, where they share their lives locally, but Christians coming
together as a collective identity as much as they can for citywide or regional
celebrations expressing the corporateness of the Church of the city or region.
Authenticity in the neighborhoods connected with a regional or citywide
corporate identity will make the Church not only politically significant and
spiritually convincing, but will allow a return to the biblical model of the
City-Church.

14. Developing a persecution-proof spirit

They crucified Jesus, the Boss of all the Christians. Today, his followers are
often more into titles, medals and social respectability, or, worst of all, they
remain silent and are not worth being noticed at all. ”Blessed are you when
you are persecuted”, says Jesus. Biblical Christianity is a healthy threat to
pagan godlessness and sinfulness, a world overcome by greed, materialism,
jealousy and any amount of demonic standards of ethics, sex, money and
power. Contemporary Christianity in many countries is simply too harmless
and polite to be worth persecuting. But as Christians again live out New
Testament standards of life and, for example, call sin as sin, conversion or
persecution has been, is and will be the natural reaction of the world. Instead
of nesting comfortably in temporary zones of religious liberty, Christians will
have to prepare to be again discovered as the main culprits against global
humanism, the modern slavery of having to have fun and the outright worship
of Self, the wrong centre of the universe. That is why Christians will and must
feel the ”repressive tolerance” of a world which has lost any absolutes and
therefore refuses to recognize and obey its creator God with his absolute
standards. Coupled with the growing ideologisation, privatization and
spiritualisation of politics and economics, Christians will—sooner than most
think—have their chance to stand happily accused in the company of Jesus.
They need to prepare now for the future by developing a persecution-proof
spirit and an even more persecution-proof structure.

15. The Church comes home

Where is the easiest place, say, for a man to be spiritual? Maybe again, is it
hiding behind a big pulpit, dressed up in holy robes, preaching holy words to
a faceless crowd and then disappearing into an office? And what is the most difficult—and therefore most meaningful—place for a man to be spiritual? At
home, in the presence of his wife and children, where everything he does and
says is automatically put through a spiritual litmus test against reality, where
hypocrisy can be effectively weeded out and authenticity can grow. Much of
Christianity has fled the family, often as a place of its own spiritual defeat,
and then has organized artificial performances in sacred buildings far from
the atmosphere of real life. As God is in the business of recapturing the
homes, the church turns back to its roots—back to where it came from. It
literally comes home, completing the circle of Church history at the end of
world history.

As Christians of all walks of life, from all denominations and
backgrounds, feel a clear echo in their spirit to what God's Spirit is
saying to the Church, and start to hear globally in order to act locally,
they begin to function again as one body. They stop asking God to bless what
they are doing - and start doing what God is blessing. They organize
themselves into neighborhood house-churches and meet in regional or city celebrations.

You are invited to become part of this movement and make your
own contribution. Maybe your home, too, will become a house that changes
the world.
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  #39  
Old 01-22-2008, 03:04 PM
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brotherjason brotherjason is offline
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Those are some powerful words to think about. I think if most people actually looked at what gets called "Christian" and saw it for the paganism it really is, it would make them sick! Christmas has nothing to do with Christ, steeples have nothing to do with worshiping the true and living God, they have been artificially placed years ago into Christianity and we just accept it. Lol, usually I'm pretty unpopular for my view on the "religious" holidays.
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  #40  
Old 01-22-2008, 03:26 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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I believe we will need both house churches and traditional churches to reach our world. Many will prefer the traditional model over the house church model. That’s fine really, there is more than enough people to reach to facilitate both. Sadly churches get possessive of their “turf” and thereby severely limit multiplied efforts to reach the lost in their communities. I believe we need traditional pastors who are willing to release men of God who have a burden for house churching, recognizing them as legitimate ministers of the gospel and maintaining fellowship with them. While churches are popping up in the suburbs, masses of humanity are left unreached in the densely populated cities where it is difficult to build or maintain a church building. House churches can be established anywhere and are perfect for establishing inner city fellowships. Traditional pastors need to just let the house church pastors follow their call.

I drive about 30 minutes (highway) to church way out in boonyville. During this drive I pass blocks and blocks of inner city neighborhoods that are still unreached. I talked to my pastor about the burden I was feeling to begin a house church and he refused to acknowledge the house church as a legitimate form of church for America in this era. He emphasized getting these individuals to come to our church. But most have never heard of us and for many the idea of driving 30 minutes or so to church isn’t appealing. Many of these individuals aren’t financially secure and I doubt they would even feel comfortable attending our “Sunday best” services. Don’t get me wrong, we have a fantastic church! I love the church we attend but I’m increasingly feeling a call to something far less glamorous in the trenches of the neighborhoods of my city. I was going to begin Bible studies in my home and just operate as a Bible study group but the services and obligations of the church we attend really gives us little time to properly serve the work. I’m very frustrated and feeling like it’s all becoming rather meaningless.
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