Hallelujah!!!!!!! Honesty at Last!!!!!!!!!!

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I don't think what we are talking about here is whether one is holy or not... what we are talking about, as I understand it, is when salvation occurs and/or what is required for that to occur.

My dear friend, oftentimes, this precious gift that comes from God, is the sole basis that is used by some to determine if someone is saved. And they close their eyes to the work of the Holy Ghost that regenerates, transforms, sanctifies a person and leads them to show the fruits of the Spirit. This fruit of the Spirit is our evidence that a person's faith is genuine as they seek to obey the Master and bring glory to the Father by the fruit they bear. This is not enough evidence for some, that the individual is saved and have genuinely placed their faith in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross! So, I think it has a lot of bearing on the issue at hand.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

We are justified by FAITH!
Abraham was justfiied by FAITH!

What would have happened if he did not obey God and become circumcised 14-16 years later after he was accounted righteous?

I know somehow these things all fit together and I haven't been able to piece them together the last week. I'm trying, but there are a few obstacles.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What would have happened if he did not obey God and become circumcised 14-16 years later after he was accounted righteous? I know somehow these things all fit together and I haven't been able to piece them together the last week. I'm trying, but there are a few obstacles.

Very simple.....he would have been cut off!!

[Ron]

I use this analogy.

My son has been told to stay away from the mud and not get dirty.
He goes out and plays (in disobedience to my instructions) comes home dirty.
He is sad, and regrets having done this and says he is sorry (repentance)
I forgive him, but say he must get cleaned up before coming into the house.
He gets cleaned up washing the dirt away (water baptism) washing away the dirt.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

This is where we differ in a big way!

I'm not sure that repentance is synonymous with putting one's trust in the cross. When Jesus began His preaching, He preached "Repent, and believe ye the gospel" (Mark 1:15 KJV). There are two separate elements here: 1) repent and 2) believe (more accurately, put one's trust in) the gospel. To repent means not merely to be sorry for one's sins or that one's sins have offended God but, more than that, to agree with God regarding one's sins and one's hopelessly lost state and to turn from one's sins never to return to them again. Putting one's trust in the gospel is to put one's trust in the good news that Jesus preached, i.e. reconciliation to God - a reconciliation made possible by Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross and His resurrection from the dead.

Whether one is "justified" at this point ("justified" meaning that although God has declared us guilty, Jesus bore our punishment for us through his propitiating work on the cross) is subject to debate and I think it could reasonably be argued both ways.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Ron

I use this analogy.

My son has been told to stay away from the mud and not get dirty.
He goes out and plays (in disobedience to my instructions) comes home dirty.
He is sad, and regrets having done this and says he is sorry (repentance)
I forgive him, but say he must get cleaned up before coming into the house.
He gets cleaned up washing the dirt away (water baptism) washing away the dirt.

So was he forgiven when he said he was sorry or not until he was washed up?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ron

I use this analogy.

My son has been told to stay away from the mud and not get dirty.
He goes out and plays (in disobedience to my instructions) comes home dirty.
He is sad, and regrets having done this and says he is sorry (repentance)
I forgive him, but say he must get cleaned up before coming into the house.
He gets cleaned up washing the dirt away (water baptism) washing away the dirt.

I love analogies.

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Just a question that came to mind while reading this thread....

How many of us have seen people receive the Holy Ghost... speaking in tongues... before they are baptized? I know I have.

Just postulating here.... putting it out there for the discussion.

Why is God filling these people with the Holy Ghost if they have not yet been baptized.

Doesn't he confuse his own doctrine by doing this if this is His doctrine?

You mean like He did in Acts 10?

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Chan

I'm not sure that repentance is synonymous with putting one's trust in the cross. When Jesus began His preaching, He preached "Repent, and believe ye the gospel" (Mark 1:15 KJV). There are two separate elements here: 1) repent and 2) believe (more accurately, put one's trust in) the gospel. To repent means not merely to be sorry for one's sins or that one's sins have offended God but, more than that, to agree with God regarding one's sins and one's hopelessly lost state and to turn from one's sins never to return to them again. Putting one's trust in the gospel is to put one's trust in the good news that Jesus preached, i.e. reconciliation to God - a reconciliation made possible by Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross and His resurrection from the dead.

Whether one is "justified" at this point ("justified" meaning that although God has declared us guilty, Jesus bore our punishment for us through his propitiating work on the cross) is subject to debate and I think it could reasonably be argued both ways.

Whoo hoo - we're all right!

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I personally don't think so! I think that is when the gavel of the Judge of all the earth comes down with BANG, as it hits the judgement bar, that echoes into eternity as the verdict is delcared by the Judge to be JUSTIFIED! Which means, regardless of the "evidence" to the contrary (sin) and based on the evidence that the person has "presented" (the cross), they are declared innocent!!!!!

Can somebody shout!!!!!!!

I don't agree that they are declared innocent! The Bible is clear that they are declared guilty. What makes it justification is that Jesus bore their punishment for them. There is no basis for punishment if they've been declared innocent.