R. Warren and his Impact on Apostolic?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Years ago a couple of preachers came by where I was pastoring and invited me to go to Hammond, In. and see how Jack Hoyles grows his church. They were excited. I asked "Do you mean Jack Hoyles the Southern Baptist preacher?" The answer was excitedly in the affirmative. I said you must be kidding right? They looked shocked. My answer was the same about him. Jack Hoyles is NOT a member of the Lord's Church how could he tell anyone how to build an Apostolic church? With all these mega churches with their formulas and programs I am NOT the least bit impressed. The reason diamonds are so valuable is that they are NOT laying by the side of the road everywhere. Quaint is NOT necessarily Quality. If you have a million and none of them are saved what have you accomplished?

So the mega church of Jerusalem, in the first century, with its 70,000 members doesn't impress you?

I do understand how it is overwhelming that a church could be true and be that large. It must also be overwhelming to know the huge task that the few little Apostolic churches have to accomplish reaching the whole world with the 'true' gospel.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

I agree with your statement that is bolded. Wouldn't it be an accomplishment (In the Spirit by Jesus giving the increase) if you have a million and they all are filled with the Holy Ghost?? Having lots does not have to mean you are a compromiser or lost.

There have been large churches that preached truth maybe not quite the size of some mega churches. But Bishop Johnson had 4500 ADULT members in Philly and Bishop Lawson had 3000 or better in NYC. Smallwood Williams though not a strong holiness preacher but did preach the new birth had the largest church in DC. David Ellis had better than 3000 in Detroit BEFORE his son took the church. The Pooles had 2000 or more in Chicago.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by crakjak

So the mega church of Jerusalem, in the first century, with its 70,000 members doesn't impress you?

I do understand how it is overwhelming that a church could be true and be that large. It must also be overwhelming to know the huge task that the few little Apostolic churches have to accomplish reaching the whole world with the 'true' gospel.

Yes and so did Ephesus and Corinth they had thousands but they preached a saing message not a lie that RW preaches.

[tv1a]

I decided after much deliberation to post the title of the book word for word for all the pseudo experts who know all about Purpose Driven Church without reading the book.

The Purpose Driven Church
Growth Without Compromising Your Message & Mission

(underlined emphasis mine)

Facts are the PDC method is the same method used in the Bible get a crowd, get some of them saved, disciple them, and send them out to win others. Can't see hell splitting wide open on that. Warren has made this book universal even cavemen could implement these Biblicallly based techniques successfully.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Blubayou

This may have been discussed before, but indulge me. While on vacation, I read a biography of Rick Warren and the story behind the establishing of Saddle back Church. The title of the book is " A Life with a Purpose". Now, I have read the "Purpose Driven Life", but have not followed the movement closely. I did find that R. Warren philosophy has really infiltrated our movement. Especially with younger ministers. One observation I made while reading the book is that at the beginning of R. Warren's ministry, the denomination he came from was mired in a traditional way of delivering the gospel. R. Warren developed some new ideas and delivery methods and really reached for the unchurched. DUH?? I see some parallels between where this denomination was in the early 70's and where we are now as a movement. I think one positive that R. Warren has going for him is that he found a very practical way to deliver the gospel to the masses that is very understandable. I do not think that everything R. Warren does should be copied in our movement, but I do think a study of his methods and philosophy would be beneficial. What say ye about R. Warren?

His paradigm is really not so much on how to reach out but how to organize the local assembly and stay focused on their purpose as a church. I think it is very practical. Read "A Purpose Driven Church"

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by bishoph

While I believe there are some things one can learn from Rick Warren as well as any other non-Apostolic, one thing is sure we are not playing the same game and the rules are different. (If they're playing baseball, we're playing football.)

I personally had the opportunity to meet with a Pastor George Rayburn (now pastor of Pathway Community Church in Peoria AZ) who is a former Vineyard pastor and who was asked by Rick Warren to oversee the "Pentecostal/Charasmatic" arm of the Purpose Driven development. Pastor George shared with me that every Pentecostal/Charasmatic church in America who had attempted to assimilate the Purpose Driven Model into their churches had seen a remarkable change in their services. The Pentecostal/Charasmatic display of the gifts and worship had diminished or disappeared altogether.

As he shared with me he noted that when this happened in his church (Pure Heart in Phoenix at that time) he fell on his face before God and determined that if this was the cost of the Purpose Driven model it was one he was not willing to pay. They have tried for years to find a way to mesh the two, and they have yet to succeed. I wonder why?

Just a side note concerning where his denomination was in the 70's (Southern Baptist) was where we are attempting to go...... they were on TV. LOL I just couldn't resist

Probably the mistake was in thinking this "program" runs itself. No matter what any one church does in organization you will always need the same kind of prayer and fasting that brought the pentecostal movement to the scene like in Azusa street. I don't think there is anything inheritly wrong with such a paradigm of organizing the church and to be sure if every member of the body understood they have a purpose which includes worship and evangelism, this church would explode

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Ignant. When it comes to growth models, he does indeed have a clue. He's got a clue about attracting people and having numerical growth.

However, when it comes to things of the spirit, I do not agree with much of what RW does. If the above quote from SE was in reference to RW not having a clue about things of the spirit, I'd agree.

I remember reading an article, I believe I still have it saved, about how RW de-christianized his church. That's to say, according to the article, he took all the symbolism of christianity out of his church. The article went to describe how he runs the church much like a business.

After that article and reading other things about RW, I've been unimpressed with him.

I like and have used books and tools from his youth ministry team, including Purpose Drive Youth Ministry. It's basic growth, but doesn't capture what's needed in the spirit.

Numerical Growth is deceptive. McDonalds has numerical growth, but that does not mean they are all saved. That is one of the major problems with the church today. They are more focused on growing in numbers quantitatively but not qualitatively. So they can boast numbers...how many of those are just people that wanted to attend a large popular church from other churches? How many of them are those that grew up on the TV commercialism that bigger is better? Newer is better? Younger is better? etc etc etc. That's been my biggest fear with the mega church growth movement. Giving people what they want is not necessarily giving them what they need.

[tv1a]

PDC is a very practical book. It's what you do with them once you get them there. The goal is a growing church numerically and spiritually and Warren addresses those in PDC.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

His paradigm is really not so much on how to reach out but how to organize the local assembly and stay focused on their purpose as a church. I think it is very practical. Read "A Purpose Driven Church"

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

Rick Warren was a Baptist who developed a techique of mass mailing to invite others to his church. I agree that having a vision and purpose helps in our walk, but there is more than "name it and claim it."

Baptists do not follow the Apostles Doctrine- their idea

He did not really develop that technique...that was already established in the sales industry. He went around and canvased his area and asked people what they wanted in a church. IF they did not go to church what sort of church would make them willing to attend more often etc etc....he then generated his mailing campaign promising to deliver those things that people wanted out of a church. Of course not everyone would want it, but eventually when such an animal grows that big and gains such notoriety it attracts others who have been conditioned that bigger is better etc etc

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by tv1a

PDC is a very practical book. It's what you do with them once you get them there. The goal is a growing church numerically and spiritually and Warren addresses those in PDC.

Exactly...there might be some aspects we can't agree on but really the main flux of it is practical and even biblical. We have a purpose to worship, reach, teach, disciple and fellowship