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  #31  
Old 07-17-2007, 07:34 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliseus View Post
Another charge often levied against this passage of scripture is that the manuscripts which do contain it are old, late, not early. That the earliest manuscripts do not, and therefore the passage should be jettisoned.

This of course presupposes that an early manuscript is superior to a later manuscript, by reason of the date. Is this argument meritorious?

Consider the following facts:

Whereas all but about 20 of the available Greek manuscripts contain the Comma (which in itself would destroy any 'only a few have them' arguments anyway), and the vast majority of these manuscripts are considered 'late' (post 9th century AD), the vast majority of the 20 odd manuscripts which omit the Comma are also late (post 9th century, some 95 percent of them, in fact). And this is according to the 'standard' set by the UBS themselves! (The UBS is the promoter of the Critical Text underlying the newer versions.)

The oldest Greek manuscript which contains the Comma (Dubbed Wizanburgensis) is older than all but 5 of the manuscripts which omit the Comma, and is contemporary with a 6th.

The bulk of the manuscripts for both sides of the issue are 'late', and both sides have 'early' manuscripts which attest to their respective readings.

But is older always better in regard to Biblical manuscripts? Not necessarily.

The Critical text relies primarily on two old texts (not necessarily manuscripts, by the way), the Vaticanus, and the Sinaiticus. These texts however routinely contradict each other in thousands of places, and the NIV or NASB or other critical text-based versions do not always make the decision of which reading to go with based upon age alone. I wonder why? In any event, these texts date from around the 4th century.

The problem is however that prior to that period, the New Testament text would have been extremely difficult to alter (such as by inserting the Johannine Comma). Many scholars are convinced that all variant readings were established by around the year 200 (Scrivener, Colwell, for example).

Consider the case of Origen for example. Origen in his day was one of the most influential teachers in Christendom. Yet his 'critical examinations' of Matthew 19:19 found their way into only one obscure manuscript of a local church. Why? Because by his time, the New Testament text had been dispersed too far and too widely to allow for such fiddling with the Scripture to be accepted very widely without leaving a clear witness to objections to the changes.

Furthermore, the Vaticanus and the Sinaiticus texts (usually referred to in the margins of newer Bible versions as 'the oldest and best manuscripts') are vellum texts. Vellum was used by Christians (especially catholics) as 'official copies' of the Scripture for liturgical usage. Unfortunately, vellum is not very durable, and wears out quickly from use.

Quick question then: If Vaticanus and Sinaiticus were designed for common liturgical use, then why do they still exist?

Obviously, the reason we even have them in existence is precisely because they were not used. I wonder why they weren't used?

It could be that, since they differ so much from the majority of the texts and manuscripts, and from each other as well (just as much, in fact), therefore nobody used them because they were obviously corrupt versions of the known text of Scripture.

Papyrus (the other primary material upon which the Scriptures were recorded) is even less durable than vellum. Usage means wear and tear, and thus replacement. Therefore, ancient manuscripts or texts on vellum or papyrus, which are in good condition after 1500 or so years, are themselves the vest evidence they were not used... and why were they not used? Because they were obviously flawed, and known to be flawed.

When you have readings that come from a MAJORITY of extant manuscripts, and those manuscripts are 'late', that in itself is proof of their usage and copying. (The originals wear out and are replaced due to use.) And when you have the opposite conditions (very old manuscripts with minority readings) you may draw the opposite conclusion - they were NOT used and copied.

Which basically implies that either the oldest pristine manuscripts and texts giving strange and minority readings are the Word of God, hidden from everyone until say the late 19th century, or else they are simply corrupted versions of the New Testament text which were not used and copied precisely because they were known to be full of errors.

Furthermore, Dean Burgon's study of the patristic writers' quotations of the New Testament showed that the patristic writers quoted the Majority (often called the 'Byzantine') family of texts and manuscripts compared to the aberrant or 'Alexandrian' (ie similar to the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus texts) by a ratio of 3 to 2. That is, they largely preferred to quote the 'later' majority manuscripts (even though these writers lived from the 2nd to the 9th centiuries!) rather than any manuscript or text reflecting the 'Alexandrian' or Vaticanus/Sinaiticus type of manuscript or text.

Zuntz (a textual critic and scholar) in his The Text of the Epistles (p 55) identified the fact that many manuscripts which are classed as 'Alexandrian' contain 'Byzantine' (majority) readings, and concludes that the Byzantine readings are ancient ( a similar situation prevails in Homeric textual criticism, by the way...)

In any event, simply pointing to a manuscript or textual reading as superior 'because it is older' is without merit. While age certianly are to be taken into account, age is by no means the sole, or even the most important, consideration in textual criticism.
Oldest is not necessarily better but we have to wonder why there are no texts that have such and such a verse until rather late...what was this MSS copied from?
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  #32  
Old 07-17-2007, 07:36 PM
Eliseus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
BTW this, if true, does not show that the comma is NOT an interpolation...in fact you could be arguing that the other verses are themselves spurious or interpolations
Praxeas, I think you are slipping.

The post you responded to was pointing out that the 'anti verse 7' crowd is being inconsistent in regard to the things I mentioned.

Please pay attention.

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  #33  
Old 07-17-2007, 07:39 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliseus View Post
Praxeas, I think you are slipping.

The post you responded to was pointing out that the 'anti verse 7' crowd is being inconsistent in regard to the things I mentioned.

Please pay attention.

I was replying to your logic. This does NOT prove the verse in question is NOT an interpolation. If anything it shows they were being inconsistant with other verses. However the argument for this verse being an interpolation is NOT based merely on the fact that only 2 MSS (and one of them being suspect) has the verse in question. Perhaps that is why these other verses were NOT said to be interpolations
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #34  
Old 07-17-2007, 07:42 PM
Eliseus
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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
I was replying to your logic. This does NOT prove the verse in question is NOT an interpolation. If anything it shows they were being inconsistant with other verses. However the argument for this verse being an interpolation is NOT based merely on the fact that only 2 MSS (and one of them being suspect) has the verse in question. Perhaps that is why these other verses were NOT said to be interpolations
There are more than 'two manuscripts', Prax. Keep up with the scholarship.

Also, my point in that post was to point out the inconsistency of the oppostion argument.

When someone argues that 'this verse right here ought to be dropped' and their arguments turn out to be inconsistent, it sorta makes their arguments less effective, ya know?

That sort of thing.
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  #35  
Old 07-17-2007, 07:57 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliseus View Post
There are more than 'two manuscripts', Prax. Keep up with the scholarship.

Also, my point in that post was to point out the inconsistency of the oppostion argument.

When someone argues that 'this verse right here ought to be dropped' and their arguments turn out to be inconsistent, it sorta makes their arguments less effective, ya know?

That sort of thing.
From what I am seeing there are only 2 manuscripts that don't have them written in the margin. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

yes I know your point. My point is, that does NOT prove the comman is NOT an interpolation or that their argument is flawed. If anything it shows only that they were inconsistant with OTHER verses and that those verses too should not be included. It does NOT make their argument any less effective just because they are not equally applying that argument across the board. That's a logical fallacy.

You're logic here is that because the translators did not apply their "argument" consistantly that argument must be wrong when in fact what might be wrong is not their argument but their application of the argument
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
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  #36  
Old 07-17-2007, 11:42 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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I have looked at both sides of the issue though not exhaustively. If indeed the earliest Latin texts have it thats convincing to me. And certainly that it was quoted by early Christians of differing beliefs gives it credence.

If it WAS written by John however that means it was deleted by many scribes along the way no doubt because it favors the Oneness position. No way to know for sure if it is or is not original.

Since it agrees with other scripture and since the first time a Oneness believer quoted it to me it helped ME eventually embrace Oneness I have joy over it personally. My opinion for what its worth.
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  #37  
Old 07-18-2007, 03:17 AM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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WHo says the earliest latin has it and why does that matter more than the earliest greek?
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #38  
Old 07-18-2007, 08:44 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
WHo says the earliest latin has it and why does that matter more than the earliest greek?
I cannot prove the EARLIEST Latin had it. Neither can you prove it did not. I never said it mattered MORE than the Greek. But I know Latin speakers have been in the Church since before 60 ad and its unthinkable that they did not commit any scripture to writing. On that basis if very early copies have it it may well be original.
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  #39  
Old 07-18-2007, 12:12 PM
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ALVIN ALVIN is offline
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Without weighing in on either side of this discussion, Eliseus does wave a necessary red flag on the topic of higher or lower (textual) criticism of the Scriptures. When you arrive at the end of that road, you're pretty much left with two bonded leather covers and a few maybes in between. (eg. The "Jesus Seminar" has whittled the sayings of Jesus in the "five gospels" down to about 18% of those sayings attributed to Him by the writers)
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  #40  
Old 07-18-2007, 12:15 PM
TheLayman TheLayman is offline
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This is very important

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliseus View Post
First off, the arguments which suggest that the Johannine Comma is an interpolation are insufficient to warrant removing the passage from the Scripture. The words of God are extremely important, and therefore it is with extreme caution that we should even contemplate striking words from the text. I do not imagine God would take kindly to us willy-nilly altering God's Word.

Also, we must be extremely wary of succumbing to the temptation of cultism, which whispers in our ear that if a particular passageof Scripture does not suit our doctrine, we should simply cry 'interpolation!' and get rid of it. In fact, if we as a movement begin to promote the idea that the Johannine Comma is an interpolation and ought to be removed, we will find ourselves severely rebuked by trinitarians for this very thing. They will accuse us of simply altering the words of God to better fit our doctrine, of removing offending passages that contradict our doctrine, and so forth. Therefore, we had better be able to show beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever that the passage in question is without any question an interpolation, and not worthy of inclusion in the canon of Scripture.

Furthermore, imagine the surprise elicited from someone you are witnessing to, when you tell them 'Well, I know this verse sounds like it reads thus, but in reality this verse doesn't even belong in the Bible...' What seeds of doubt have you just planted in their minds concerning the integrity of the Word of God? What else may need to be excised? And if they agree that various portions of Scripture ought to be excised, where will it end? What cult may they fall victim to, having already agreed to the premise that all those 'difficult' verses may be freely expunged from the record?

I would suggest then the subject is no easy come, easy go subject. Anyone who would lightly undertake to correct the Bible or say 'this verse, long accepted by Christians everywhere, ought to be withdrawn and forgotten' is foolhardy at best. This does not mean we should not 'prove all things, hold fast that which is good' but it does mean we better have our ducks lined up perfectly lest we be found guilty of adding to and taking away from God's words.
Greetings Eliseus:

What you have said here is extremely important principle for everyone to keep in mind regarding modern criticism. While Christians should want to be their own hardest critics insofar as evidence is concerned, don't jump on bandwagons just because some "scholars" have "discovered," "determined," "concluded", etc., something new. Remember something, people are people and there is only time to study so much. So sometimes something gets a following form many scholars simply because they have taken another scholar at his word and may discount any bias in the conclusions of a study.

Let me give you another example of "modern criticism." If you will look in just about any modern Bible you will find that the authorship of Hebrews is not ascribed to Paul as it is in the KJV (and as it was universally until modern criticism). Years ago I was taking a class on Hebrews at Moody and this is the first thing that came up. The commentary for the class said that the author was unkown, there was no evidence for Paul, and that Luther had suggested that it might have been written by Apollos.

This class was online and the class was given assignments to post on a (closed) discussion board for classwork. On this occasion it was "Who do you think wrote Hebrews and what is it's importance?" I was amazed to see that the class as a whole accepted the idea that Paul had not written Hebrews based on a few paragraphs in a commentary, and now the majority (though not all) believed Apollos wrote it. I was amazed because the evidence for Pauline authorship, both internal and external, is so overwhelming I am still surprised the "modern criticism" even dare challenge it. In contrast, there is no evidence for anyone else having written Hebrews, and certainly not Apollos.

This also opens the door to the ridiculous, such as the article that challenges the authenticity of Matt. 28:19. In fact, the article and certainly Cohen Reckart say "many scholars now believe it to be spurious." This is of course laughable as there is absolutely no challenge to the authenticity of Matt 28:19, none, zero, never has been, nor has there ever been any evidence whatsoever that it is spurious. Yet people read that article and believe the tripe instead of the Gospel! The Word of God should never be that easy to trash.

So Eliseus, I think the idea that one needs to take more care in saying anything in Scripture is spurious than they do with anything else. I understand the arguments against 1John 5:7 (though when it is all said and done it seems that these arguments are based on negative evidence rather than evidence) and yet I certainly remain unconvinced that it is spurious. But again, this is God's Word we are talking about and once again, I think one needs to be ever so careful with it.

TheLayman
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