A Godhead Question

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You were referring to Jesus, but then again even the bible calls Spirit "it"...why? Because Spirit is neuter gender. The greek word is Neuter gender and so it takes a neuter gender pronoun. That does not make Spirit a non-living thing. Jesus, before the incarnation is not merely an "it" (the plan or logos of God) but is God Himself.

I was with you on the spirit being neuter gender, therefore being called "it" however, God is a spirit and he's always referred to as "he".

[Barb]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I was with you on the spirit being neuter gender, therefore being called "it" however, God is a spirit and he's always referred to as "he".

Absolutely, Renda...

[Rhoni]

There is much to think about contained in this thread. Oneness Apostolics, of which I am a PART, seem to be afraid to discuss the issue of the Godhead because they are afraid of the word 'trinity', and triune anything, or they really don't know in their minds what they believe.

The Bible tells us to do all in word or deed in the name of Jesus. To me this settles the question of who to pray to, and who's name to baptize in.

Just like earthly Fathers who transfer the family business to the son, I think God transferred all his power and authority to His only begotten son. The spirit that indwells us is that same spirit that dwells in Christ, the spirit of God which is what makes us also a son of God although we are not begotten but adopted.

I agree that the spirit of God and the Holy Ghost which we possess is genderless, but I think we would all have to agree that Jesus Christ was a male child.

Blessings, Rhoni

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

In Oneness circles we teach that Jesus Christ pre-existed as the Word and then became flesh and dwelt among us. I’m interested in how you explain Philippians 2:6-11.

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”


Verse 6 refers to “who”. Verse 7 uses the word “himself” and “him”.Verse 8 says “he” humbled “himself”. Verse 9 refers to “him”.

It seems that Paul is referring to Jesus Christ in the pre-existent state using the same pronouns as the person of Jesus in the flesh on earth, rather than as an “it” which would seem more appropriate if one was referring to the “word”.

Why does it say, “…made himself of no reputation”?

Hi, TB. I do not believe this passage is referring to any pre-incarnate state at all!

Rather, it is s specimen of Paul's Adam-Christology.

Paul presents several Christologies, meaning that Paul views Christ in several ways, or from several different perspectives. One of those perspectives concerns His role as the Second Adam. He speaks of this in his letter to the Romans, as well, and hints of it in several other places.

Here, Paul expresses Adam Christology and its practical application to the believer.

He begins with 'let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.' This sets the context, Christ's attitude and state of mind. Notice that Paul is speaking of the mind which was in 'Christ Jesus', literally 'The Anointed One, Jesus'. Thus, Paul is speaking of the post-incarnate Jesus, Jesus considered as the Messiah, a human being, the Son of God, anointed by God to be the vessel of Redemption and Salvation for all mankind, sent to reverse the curse brought upon Adam's kin, brought upon us by Adam's disobedience in the Garden. So we are not speaking of the mentality or attitude possessed by the pre-incarnate Logos, but of the human Son of God.

He then says "Who being in the form of God..." Here Paul recalls the words of Moses who described the first Adam as being made in the image of God. Paul will begin a comparison and contrast between the first Adam and the second Adam (Christ). Whereas BOTH were in the form of God, they followed two very different paths, because of their different attitudes or 'minds'.

'...thought it not robbery to be equal with God'. Some translators render this along the lines of '...did not think equality with God was something to be grasped.' This is precisely the opposite of the first Adam's inclination, who being in the form of God was not content to merely be a microcosm of God but chose to 'be as God'. Christ however did NOT pursue that path.

'But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men...' The first Adam attempted by his disobedience to make himself of quite some reputation, in attempting to usurp God's role and position for himself, and taking upon himself the form of a god, but was rendered mortal by the judgement of God. The second Adam, however, did just the opposite, in that He voluntarily took upon himself the form (appearance) of a servant (instead of a master, as He himself so declared several times). He was voluntarily reduced to the likeness or sameness of mortal man, whereas the first Adam was involunatrily reduced to such a state.

'And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.' Here Christ is said to have humbled himself, having taken the path of servanthood and mortality, and submitted to the death of the cross. This is in stark contrast to the first Adam, who being found in fashion as God (in the image and likeness of God) was disobedient (because of his grasping at being equal with God) and was forced into the path of lowly servanthood and mortality, weakness and death.

'Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name...' The first Adam was demoted and cast down, because of his disobedience in attempting to be equal with God, whereas the second Adam was exalted and lifted up and placed on an equal footing with God because of His obedience and submission.

'That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.' Jesus (the man, the Son of God, the second or 'last' Adam) was exalted into a place of equality with God so that the prophetic declaration of Isaiah concerning YHVH would be fulfilled in Christ, and this is the method by which glory is given to YHVH (God, the Father). This is a wonderful statement of the Oneness doctrine, by the way, in that the only acceptable way of glorifying God is to glorify Jesus Christ.

Whereas the first Adam was made in the image or form of God, and chose to grasp equality with God, and was punished by being demoted to the lowly state of mortal and weak humanity, made a servant of death, the second or last Adam, Jesus Christ, chose a different path. He chose a path of obedience, choosing not to step upon the stage as the equal of God but rather as a lowly, mortal servant. And this submission of the Son of God resulted in His exaltation to equality with God, meaning that the worship and honour due to God is now due to Jesus Christ. Christ's re-enactment of the fall of man, with the key elements reversed by His obedience, resulted in His exaltation and the redemption and salvation of mankind.

Trinitarians have for a long time seen this passage as a declaration of the pre-existence of Christ, and as referring to his 'kenosis' in incarnating and becoming human. There are however serious problems with this interpretation.

1. First and foremost, it inserts into Paul's theology what is everywhere else missing - the idea of a pre-incarnate divine intermediary being. The only New Testament passages which could even be supposed to so much as suggest or hint at such an idea are found much later, in the apostle John's writings, and even those are not wholly supportive of the 'intermediary divine being' hypothesis which is the foundation of Trinitarian and Arian theology.

2. Secondly, if the preincarnation interpretation be accepted, it requires us to believe that Jesus Christ (the man) was indeed a distinct personage from God prior to incarnation, yet at the same time LESS than God Himself and someone distinct from GOD (not merely distinct from 'God the father' but from GOD in toto.) This is nothing else than Arianism. If this is preincarnation doctrine, then Christ is simply a second God-like being, not God Himself, contrary to both trinitarian and Oneness theology.

3. The Adamic Christology interpretation is consistent with Paul's theology everywhere else, in presenting Christ as (among other things) a God-sent Saviour who recapitulates not only Israel's spiritual history, but all mankind's, yet in such a way as to reverse the fall of man and secure Redemption and immortality instead of death and mortality (as the first Adam did).

Moreover, the idea of Christ as being a pre-existent divine intermediary being is simply repugnant to the whole tenor of the rest of Scripture, ESPECIALLY the old testament scripture which was familiar to Paul and upon which he relied for teaching material.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Paul just told you.

Who being in the form of GOD.

NET Php 2:6 who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,

NET commentary The Greek term translated form indicates a correspondence with reality. Thus the meaning of this phrase is that Christ was truly God.

There is no question that Jesus is God, but "in the form of God" means He had what "form" at that moment of His existence?

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I was with you on the spirit being neuter gender, therefore being called "it" however, God is a spirit and he's always referred to as "he".

Jesus Himself did not refer to the Spirit as being neuter gender. He referred to the Spirit as HE. John 14:26 is a good example of this where Jesus said "But the Holy Spirit, WHOM the Father will send in my name, HE will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."


How can one believe that the Holy Spirit is God and yet believe He is an it? Especially in light of the words of Jesus Himself who clearly declared in John 14:20 regarding the Holy Spirit indwelling us, "In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you."

I'm sorry, but I cannot bring myself to refer to the Holy Spirit, [who is Christ in me] as an IT.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

There is much to think about contained in this thread. Oneness Apostolics, of which I am a PART, seem to be afraid to discuss the issue of the Godhead because they are afraid of the word 'trinity', and triune anything, or they really don't know in their minds what they believe.

The Bible tells us to do all in word or deed in the name of Jesus. To me this settles the question of who to pray to, and who's name to baptize in.

Just like earthly Fathers who transfer the family business to the son, I think God transferred all his power and authority to His only begotten son. The spirit that indwells us is that same spirit that dwells in Christ, the spirit of God which is what makes us also a son of God although we are not begotten but adopted.

I agree that the spirit of God and the Holy Ghost which we possess is genderless, but I think we would all have to agree that Jesus Christ was a male child.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni, I agree with you that Oneness Pentecostals find it very uncomfortable to freely use the terminology of Scripture in reference to the Godhead.

I disagree with your conclusion as to whom we are to pray. Jesus has the final word and He taught His disciples to pray, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name..."

Notice that the verse you quote here is referring to what we DO. This is proper, because the only authority we have to DO anything in the Kingdom of God is the name of the King, Jesus Christ.

Scripture points us to the following conclusion, which I find to be powerful myself. We come to the Father, through Jesus Christ, in the power of the Holy Spirit. When I came to realize this simple truth it transformed my approach to God.

Jesus came to reconcile me to the Father. He made it possible, through my union with Him, to have this wonderful relationship with the Father. Now He makes it possible for me to maintain that relationship by serving as the mediator between me and my Father. The Holy Spirit is the power behind that mediation.

[Felicity]

Maybe the reason some people have a problem with praying to the Father is because they really don't understand the Godhead. They get all mixed up in their heads if they use the terms, Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit interchangeably. To save themselves getting twisted up and scrambled they play it safe by praying to "Jesus" only.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

In Oneness circles we teach that Jesus Christ pre-existed as the Word and then became flesh and dwelt among us. I’m interested in how you explain Philippians 2:6-11.

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”


Verse 6 refers to “who”. Verse 7 uses the word “himself” and “him”.Verse 8 says “he” humbled “himself”. Verse 9 refers to “him”.

It seems that Paul is referring to Jesus Christ in the pre-existent state using the same pronouns as the person of Jesus in the flesh on earth, rather than as an “it” which would seem more appropriate if one was referring to the “word”.

Why does it say, “…made himself of no reputation”?

This passage speaks entirely of the man, the Lord Jesus Christ, his state as a man in whom the entirety of the Godhead dwelled in, in His preglorified state, having all the limitations and experiences of being a man, nothing unlike you and I. Contrast that state with the exalted post-glorified state of the man now called God, having no such limitations, having becoming one with His Father so as to be no longer distinguished from his father, having become ONE with his father in person and all representations. This passage is of pre and post glorification significance.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

I disagree with your conclusion as to whom we are to pray. Jesus has the final word and He taught His disciples to pray, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name..."

1 Cor 1:2 refers to those who 'call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord' which is a reference to addressing Jesus Christ directly (obviously fulfilling the definition of 'prayer to Jesus'). The apostle identifies Christians as those who 'call upon the name of Jesus Christ', therefore anyone who does not call upon the name of Jesus Christ is not a Christian, and since calling upon His name indicates addressing Him directly, anyone who does not address Him directly indicates they are either not a Christian or else seriously confused about some things.

Paul says he prayed to Jesus 3 times (2 Corinthians 12:8-9) in regard to one single issue!

1 John 5:14-15 is very strong evidence that praying to Jesus is acceptable and normal apostolic practice. (The referrent object of 'him' is the preceding 'son of God').

Acts 1:24 appears to be a clear case of corporate prayer to Jesus.


1 Timothy 1:12 has Paul giving thanks to Jesus. If we cannot pray to Jesus, we cannot give thanks to Him as well. Prayer is more than merely petition...

In Acts chapter 7, Stephen addresses Jesus directly in prayer.

The very last words of the Bible are a prayer to Jesus (Revelation 22:20).

Now, here's something interesting...

John 14:14 in the NASB reads thus:

'If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

The ESV also follows this reading, as does the ancient Latin and the modern NIV.