What dies at death and wehat is resurrected?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Amanah

A living soul is a living being, with the breath of life that comes from God. I see lt as mind/body and breath.

However, Paul spoke of his presence with the Lord in a sense of conscious existence.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Esaias, how do u view Mark 12:26-27, in regard to explaining what part(& how) of those mentioned, are currently living?

Mark 12:26-27 KJV
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? [27] He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

First of all, the context is "that the dead rise". Jesus is proving the resurrection, not an intermediate state, that was the point of debate with the Sadducees.

He says God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, as a proof that the dead will in fact resurrect. Since He is God of the living, not the dead, then Abraham etc must come back to life, therefore the dead are raised.

Remember, Christ's argument is that there will be a resurrection, not that the dead aren't dead but actually alive. It is the dead that are resurrected, not the living.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I'm just saying that leaving the body to be with the Lord can only be in soul and spirit going to heaven.

But this is incorrect. Being with the Lord was taught by Paul to occur at resurrection. Being absent from the body and present with the Lord isn't about out of body experiences, astral travel, or being a disembodied spirit in an intermediate conscious state. It's about resurrection.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Mark 12:26-27 KJV
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? [27] He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

First of all, the context is "that the dead rise". Jesus is proving the resurrection, not an intermediate state, that was the point of debate with the Sadducees.

He says God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, as a proof that the dead will in fact resurrect. Since He is God of the living, not the dead, then Abraham etc must come back to life, therefore the dead are raised.

Remember, Christ's argument is that there will be a resurrection, not that the dead aren't dead but actually alive. It is the dead that are resurrected, not the living.

But Jesus put the emphasis on the current time when He spoke saying God was God of Abraham at that moment, and thereby implied Abraham was alive at that moment.

[Carl]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But Jesus put the emphasis on the current time when He spoke saying God was God of Abraham at that moment, and thereby implied Abraham was alive at that moment.

Romans 14:8-9 tells us that Christ both died and rose and revived that he might be Lord both of the dead and living that whether dead or alive we are the Lord's. So that really clarifies the verses in Mark. It's not that everyone must be alive in some capacity to belong to the Lord. That is why there is a category of people called "the dead in Christ".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Carl

Romans 14:8-9 tells us that Christ both died and rose and revived that he might be Lord both of the dead and living that whether dead or alive we are the Lord's. So that really clarifies the verses in Mark. It's not that everyone must be alive in some capacity to belong to the Lord. That is why there is a category of people called "the dead in Christ".

But Jesus is not speaking from the perspective of what we find in Romans. Romans speaks from our perspective on earth when people are dead in our presence or alive in our presence. For Jesus to say that Abraham was alive, we understand that from our perspective on earth, he was alive when in his body, but dead when absent from his body, noting God's perspective saw him with Hi

Also, I never claimed it is saying everyone must be alive in some respect if they belong to the Lord. I meant that the title fo God being the God of Abraham was used by Jesus to show that it's an indication that those like Arbaham, who have gone on, are absent from us but present with the Lord.

[Esaias]

If Abraham etc were at that time alive, then they never died, and cannot be resurrected. Christ was not trying to prove a conscious intermediate state, but a future RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.

[Carl]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But Jesus is not speaking from the perspective of what we find in Romans. Romans speaks from our perspective on earth when people are dead in our presence or alive in our presence. For Jesus to say that Abraham was alive, we understand that from our perspective on earth, he was alive when in his body, but dead when absent from his body, noting God's perspective saw him with Hi

Also, I never claimed it is saying everyone must be alive in some respect if they belong to the Lord. I meant that the title fo God being the God of Abraham was used by Jesus to show that it's an indication that those like Arbaham, who have gone on, are absent from us but present with the Lord.

I understand what your saying but once again there is no mention of an intermediate state and the context is the resurrection. The basis of his Lordship is his death and resurrection not the perspective or location of the dead and living, of course the dead would have no perception of reality.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If Abraham etc were at that time alive, then they never died, and cannot be resurrected. Christ was not trying to prove a conscious intermediate state, but a future RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.

I totally disagree. He was asked about resurrection, yes, but let them know also that Abraham was alive. Departed from the world, but present with God. Jesus flatly stated that abraham is alive. God s not God of those who will be alive, but of those who are alive. This is what Paul says about resurrecting also. Absence from body.. Dead from our perspective.. but with Lord... Alive from his. To be rejoined to body and alive in world again.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Carl

I understand what your saying but once again there is no mention of an intermediate state and the context is the resurrection. The basis of his Lordship is his death and resurrection not the perspective or location of the dead and living, of course the dead would have no perception of reality.

Paul expounded on that in 2 cor 5. Absence from body is presence with lord.