The Book of Enoch

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Bumping so that I can review the thread.

[mfblume]

BTW,

Jude never said Enoch wrote anything, but just that he prophesied something.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by mfblume

BTW,

Jude never said Enoch wrote anything, but just that he prophesied something.

Bro Blume! nice to see you posting!!!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

BTW,

Jude never said Enoch wrote anything, but just that he prophesied something.

Paul didn't say the Greek poets wrote anything either, just that they said somethings.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

BTW,

Jude never said Enoch wrote anything, but just that he prophesied something.

Welcome back. Good to see you post.

Brother Esaias echoed my thoughts in his reply with his post. Because what he posted would of been my reply as well.

[TGBTG]

Esaias,
Is my understanding of what you’re saying correct? That is:
1. Enoch did NOT make the prophecy called out in the book of Jude
2. That prophecy was from Jewish mythology
3. Jude was using the Jewish mythology prophecy as an analogy

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Esaias,
Is my understanding of what you’re saying correct? That is:
1. Enoch did NOT make the prophecy called out in the book of Jude
2. That prophecy was from Jewish mythology
3. Jude was using the Jewish mythology prophecy as an analogy

All the evidence indicates the following:

1. False teachers had entered the churches.

2. Jewish fables about Enoch include that he said "Jehovah comes with 10000 saints to execute judgment..." etc as stated in Jude.

3. The fables make that prophecy about the fallen angels and the masses who are led by them.

4. Jude quotes the statement and applies it to the false teachers.

5. Jude quotes other portions of the Enoch literature and other Jewish pseudepigrapha.

6. Those writings make those statements about fallen angels, but Jude applies them to the false teachers instead.

7. The key identifying characteristic of these false teachers is they slander the divine government by speaking evil things about heavenly beings (angels).

8. The key unifying characteristic of the Jewish fables that Jude quotes from is their insistence that many angels rebelled against God and cohabited with women producing all the evils in the world today.

9. #8 literally means the Jewish fables have slandered the divine government by accusations against God's angels and blaming man's problems on those rebellious heavenly beings.

10. Therefore, Jude seems to be warning against false teachers who teach heavenly beings rebelled against God and are the cause of mankind's problems, and that such a teaching is a blasphemy against God and slanderous.

Honestly, to me, there is no other explanation that makes sense, or which doesn't open a Pandora's box of contradictions with the rest of Scripture.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

All the evidence indicates the following:

1. False teachers had entered the churches.

2. Jewish fables about Enoch include that he said "Jehovah comes with 10000 saints to execute judgment..." etc as stated in Jude.

3. The fables make that prophecy about the fallen angels and the masses who are led by them.

4. Jude quotes the statement and applies it to the false teachers.

5. Jude quotes other portions of the Enoch literature and other Jewish pseudepigrapha.

6. Those writings make those statements about fallen angels, but Jude applies them to the false teachers instead.

7. The key identifying characteristic of these false teachers is they slander the divine government by speaking evil things about heavenly beings (angels).

8. The key unifying characteristic of the Jewish fables that Jude quotes from is their insistence that many angels rebelled against God and cohabited with women producing all the evils in the world today.

9. #8 literally means the Jewish fables have slandered the divine government by accusations against God's angels and blaming man's problems on those rebellious heavenly beings.

10. Therefore, Jude seems to be warning against false teachers who teach heavenly beings rebelled against God and are the cause of mankind's problems, and that such a teaching is a blasphemy against God and slanderous.

Honestly, to me, there is no other explanation that makes sense, or which doesn't open a Pandora's box of contradictions with the rest of Scripture.

Interesting..Reading the text again, i don’t see what you’re saying

What I see is that Jude is saying that those ungodly men that crept into the church will receive judgement just like 1) those who came out of Egypt that then disbelieved 2) angels which did not keep their first estate 3) sodom and Gomorrah.
It doesn’t make sense to me that the first and third example of judgment he gave were real occurrences but the second example is Jewish myth. Maybe I would understand you better if I got an in person explanation..haha

What contradictions do you see by believing that the “angels which left their first estate…” is not mythology ?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Interesting..Reading the text again, i don’t see what you’re saying

What I see is that Jude is saying that those ungodly men that crept into the church will receive judgement just like 1) those who came out of Egypt that then disbelieved 2) angels which did not keep their first estate 3) sodom and Gomorrah.
It doesn’t make sense to me that the first and third example of judgment he gave were real occurrences but the second example is Jewish myth. Maybe I would understand you better if I got an in person explanation..haha

Using only the Bible, how does one explain Jude 6? Verse 5 says his audience already knew about this. So what Scripture (which in Jude's time would basically mean the Old Testament) teaches about angels leaving their first estate and being placed under chains of darkness until Judgment Day? Where is that information coming from?

If verse 5 is a reference to 2 Peter verse 4, which the way it is written assumes the readers are familiar with the subject, then where does that information come from? Especially since Peter says they were sent to Tartarus (a place found only in Greek mythology)?

The angels spoken of here, are they nonhuman supernatural beings? Or people (angel means messenger, and does not in itself say anything about the species of the messenger, for example evangelists are a type of "angel" per the etymology of the word)?

Now, the mystical Jewish literature of the time (including the Enochian literature) did include stories about rebellious divine beings (angels) being chained in the netherworld below Hades (just like the Greek Titans). And 2 Peter and Jude both contain numerous quotes from that literature. BUT unlike that literature, those quotes are applied to the false teachers whereas the Jewish literature applies those quotes to the fallen angelic beings.

This creates the contradictions I spoke about. It means that cosmological and spiritual truths unknown to the Bible were first revealed to heathens and Jewish occultists, then somehow confirmed by Peter and Jude, who nevertheless seemed to be denying those very same revelations but are warning against false teachers who make false accusations about angelic beings as the foundation of their false teachings!

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

All the evidence indicates the following:

1. False teachers had entered the churches.

2. Jewish fables about Enoch include that he said "Jehovah comes with 10000 saints to execute judgment..." etc as stated in Jude.

3. The fables make that prophecy about the fallen angels and the masses who are led by them.

4. Jude quotes the statement and applies it to the false teachers.

5. Jude quotes other portions of the Enoch literature and other Jewish pseudepigrapha.

6. Those writings make those statements about fallen angels, but Jude applies them to the false teachers instead.

7. The key identifying characteristic of these false teachers is they slander the divine government by speaking evil things about heavenly beings (angels).

8. The key unifying characteristic of the Jewish fables that Jude quotes from is their insistence that many angels rebelled against God and cohabited with women producing all the evils in the world today.

9. #8 literally means the Jewish fables have slandered the divine government by accusations against God's angels and blaming man's problems on those rebellious heavenly beings.

10. Therefore, Jude seems to be warning against false teachers who teach heavenly beings rebelled against God and are the cause of mankind's problems, and that such a teaching is a blasphemy against God and slanderous.

Honestly, to me, there is no other explanation that makes sense, or which doesn't open a Pandora's box of contradictions with the rest of Scripture.

If Im thinking that it was the rebellion in heaven that got things kicked off then what do I do with Romans which says,"By one MANS sin death entered the world."?