James Strong, KJV, Redefinitions of words?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Sean, what is happening here is that you aren’t showing us examples.
What on earth do you mean. Listen, post clear evidence of modern redefinitions of Greek supposedly upending definitions we already had? Sean, make it plain by showing us EVIDENCE. Your inability to navigate a Bible program was hysterical. But please do better.

8. boethos bo-ay-thos' from 995 and theo (to run); a succorer:--helper.

1249. diakonos dee-ak'-on-os probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon or deaconess):--deacon, minister, servant.
1530. eispedao ice-pay-dah'-o from 1519 and pedao (to leap); to rush in:--run (spring) in.
1532. eistrecho ice-trekh'-o from 1519 and 5143; to hasten inward:--run in.
1632. ekcheo ek-kheh'-o, or (by variation) ekchuno ek-khoo'-no from 1537 and cheo (to pour); to pour forth; figuratively, to bestow:--gush (pour) out, run greedily (out), shed (abroad, forth), spill.
2027. epokello ep-ok-el'-lo from 1909 and okello (to urge); to drive upon the shore, i.e. to beach a vessel:--run aground.
2701. katatrecho kat-at-rekh'-o from 2596 and 5143; to run down, i.e. hasten from a tower:--run down.
3729. hormao hor-mah'-o from 3730; to start, spur or urge on, i.e. (reflexively) to dash or plunge:--run (violently), rush.
4063. peritrecho per-ee-trekh'-o from 4012 and 5143 (including its alternate); to run around, i.e. traverse:--run through.
4370. prostrecho pros-trekh'-o from 4314 and 5143 (including its alternate); to run towards, i.e. hasten to meet or join:--run (thither to, to).
4390. protrecho prot-rekh'-o from 4253 and 5143 (including its alternate); to run forward, i.e. outstrip, precede:--outrun, run before.
4482. rheo hreh'-o a primary verb; for some tenses of which a prolonged form rheuo hryoo'-o is used to flow ("run"; as water):--flow.
4890. sundrome soon-drom-ay' from (the alternate of) 4936; a running together, i.e. (riotous) concourse:--run together.
4936. suntrecho soon-trekh'-o from 4862 and 5143 (including its alternate); to rush together (hastily assemble) or headlong (figuratively):--run (together, with).
5032. tachion takh'-ee-on neuter singular of the comparative of 5036 (as adverb); more swiftly, i.e. (in manner) more rapidly, or (in time) more speedily:--out (run), quickly, shortly, sooner.
5143. trecho trekh'-o apparently a primary verb (properly, threcho; compare 2359); which uses dremo drem'-o (the base of 1408) as alternate in certain tenses; to run or walk hastily (literally or figuratively):--have course, run.
5240. huperekchuno hoop-er-ek-khoo'-no from 5228 and the alternate form of 1632; to pour out over, i.e. (passively) to overflow:--run over.
5295. hupotrecho hoop-ot-rekh'-o from 5259 and 5143 (including its alternate); to run under, i.e. (specially), to sail past:--run under.
5343. pheugo fyoo'-go apparently a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish:--escape, flee (away).




LOL






Behold, the replacement for your KJV.

[Sean]

I have friends that call me, saying "Hey, in the Bible verse it says this, but check it out in the Strongs"......




LOL

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

8. boethos bo-ay-thos' from 995 and theo (to run); a succorer:--helper.

1249. diakonos dee-ak'-on-os probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon or deaconess):--deacon, minister, servant.
1530. eispedao ice-pay-dah'-o from 1519 and pedao (to leap); to rush in:--run (spring) in.
1532. eistrecho ice-trekh'-o from 1519 and 5143; to hasten inward:--run in.
1632. ekcheo ek-kheh'-o, or (by variation) ekchuno ek-khoo'-no from 1537 and cheo (to pour); to pour forth; figuratively, to bestow:--gush (pour) out, run greedily (out), shed (abroad, forth), spill.
2027. epokello ep-ok-el'-lo from 1909 and okello (to urge); to drive upon the shore, i.e. to beach a vessel:--run aground.
2701. katatrecho kat-at-rekh'-o from 2596 and 5143; to run down, i.e. hasten from a tower:--run down.
3729. hormao hor-mah'-o from 3730; to start, spur or urge on, i.e. (reflexively) to dash or plunge:--run (violently), rush.
4063. peritrecho per-ee-trekh'-o from 4012 and 5143 (including its alternate); to run around, i.e. traverse:--run through.
4370. prostrecho pros-trekh'-o from 4314 and 5143 (including its alternate); to run towards, i.e. hasten to meet or join:--run (thither to, to).
4390. protrecho prot-rekh'-o from 4253 and 5143 (including its alternate); to run forward, i.e. outstrip, precede:--outrun, run before.
4482. rheo hreh'-o a primary verb; for some tenses of which a prolonged form rheuo hryoo'-o is used to flow ("run"; as water):--flow.
4890. sundrome soon-drom-ay' from (the alternate of) 4936; a running together, i.e. (riotous) concourse:--run together.
4936. suntrecho soon-trekh'-o from 4862 and 5143 (including its alternate); to rush together (hastily assemble) or headlong (figuratively):--run (together, with).
5032. tachion takh'-ee-on neuter singular of the comparative of 5036 (as adverb); more swiftly, i.e. (in manner) more rapidly, or (in time) more speedily:--out (run), quickly, shortly, sooner.
5143. trecho trekh'-o apparently a primary verb (properly, threcho; compare 2359); which uses dremo drem'-o (the base of 1408) as alternate in certain tenses; to run or walk hastily (literally or figuratively):--have course, run.
5240. huperekchuno hoop-er-ek-khoo'-no from 5228 and the alternate form of 1632; to pour out over, i.e. (passively) to overflow:--run over.
5295. hupotrecho hoop-ot-rekh'-o from 5259 and 5143 (including its alternate); to run under, i.e. (specially), to sail past:--run under.
5343. pheugo fyoo'-go apparently a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish:--escape, flee (away).




LOL






Behold, the replacement for your KJV.

Sean, has to be one in a million. Because no one could be as ignorantly dangerous as he. I could be wrong, but I would hate to even believe some with his caliber of stump ignorant darkens the doors of a place of worship and learning. Yet, here we have a man who even armed with a Bible program doesn't know how it works. Not only that but Sean doesn't understand how a dictionary works. The word "helper" isn't redefined, but has different Greek words used in different verses which can use the English word. Since Sean struggles with dictionaries let's see what definitions there are for "helper" in a dictionary.
ˈ

Helper
noun
a person who helps someone else.
"there was no shortage of willing helpers"
assistant, aide, helpmate, helpmeet, deputy, auxiliary, second, right-hand man/woman, attendant, acolyte coworker, workmate, teammate, associate, colleague, partner; informal: sidekick, body man.

How about the etymology for the English word "helper?"

helper (n.)
mid-14c., agent noun from help (v.). Helpestre "a female helper" is recorded from c. 1400. The Old English agent noun was helpend.

benefactor (n.)
"one who confers a benefit, a kindly helper," especially "one who endows a charitable institution," mid-15c., from Late Latin benefactor, from Latin phrase bene facere, from bene "well" (see bene-) + facere "to do" (from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put"). Translated in Old English as wel-doend. Also in 15c. benefetour, from Old French bienfaiteur.

helpmeet (n.)
a ghost word from the 1611 translation of the Bible, where it originally was a two-word noun-adjective phrase translating Latin adjutorium simile sibi [Genesis ii.18] as "an help meet for him," and meaning literally "a helper like himself." See help (n.) + meet (adj.). By 1670s it was hyphenated help-meet and mistaken as a modified noun. Compare helpmate. The original Hebrew is 'ezer keneghdo.

aid (n.)
early 15c., "war-time tax," also "help, support, assistance," from Old French aide, earlier aiudha "aid, help, assistance" (9c.), from Late Latin adiuta, noun use of fem. of adiutus, past participle of Latin adiuvare "to give help to," from ad "to" (see ad-) + iuvare "to help, give strength, support, sustain," which is from a PIE source perhaps related to the root of iuvenis "young person" (see young (adj.)). Meaning "thing by which assistance is given" is recorded from 1590s; meaning "person who assists, helper" is from 1560s. Meaning "material help given by one country to another" is from 1940.

aid (v.)

"to assist, help," c. 1400, from Old French aidier "help, assist" (Modern French aider), from Latin adiutare, frequentative of adiuvare (past participle adiutus) "to give help to," from ad "to" (see ad-) + iuvare "to help, assist, give strength, support, sustain," which is from a PIE source perhaps related to the root of iuvenis "young person" (see young (adj.)). Related: Aided; aiding.

flour (n.)
"finer portion of ground grain," mid-13c., from flower (n.), and maintaining its older spelling, on the notion of flour as the "finest part" of meal, perhaps as the flower is the finest part of the plant or the fairest plant of the field (compare French fleur de farine), as distinguished from the coarser parts (meal (n.2)). Old French flor also meant both "a flower, blossom" and "meal, fine flour." The English word also was spelled flower until flour became the accepted form c. 1830 to end confusion. Flour-knave "miller's helper" is from c. 1300.

flour (v.)

"to sprinkle with flour," 1650s, from flour (n.). Meaning "convert (wheat) into flour" is from 1828. Related: Floured; flouring.

help (n.)
Old English help (m.), helpe (f.) "assistance, succor," from help (v.). Most Germanic languages also have the noun form, such as Old Norse hjalp, Swedish hjälp, Old Frisian helpe, Dutch hulp, Old High German helfa, German Hilfe. Use of help as euphemism for "servant" is American English, 1640s, originally in New England. Bartlett (1848) describes it as "The common name in New England for servants, and for the operatives in a cotton or woollen factory."

A domestic servant of American birth, and without negro blood in his or her veins ... is not a servant, but a 'help.' 'Help wanted,' is the common heading of advertisements in the North, when servants are required. [Chas. Mackay, "Life and Liberty in America," 1859].
Though help also meant "assistant, helper, supporter" in Middle English (c. 1200).

help (v.)

Old English helpan "help, support, succor; benefit, do good to; cure, amend" (transitive, class III strong verb; past tense healp, past participle holpen), from Proto-Germanic *helpan (source also of Old Norse hjalpa, Old Frisian helpa, Middle Dutch and Dutch helpen, Old High German helfan, German helfen), from PIE root *kelb- "to help" (source also of Lithuanian selpiu "to support, help").

Intransitive sense, "afford aid or assistance," is from early 13c. Recorded as a cry of distress from late 14c. Sense of "serve someone with food at table" (1680s) is translated from French servir "to help, stead, avail," and led to helping "portion of food." Help yourself as an invitation, in reference to food, etc., is from 1894. Related: Helped (c. 1300). The Middle English past participle holpen survives in biblical and U.S. dialectal use.

No, Sean, doesn't understand his Bible program search for "helper" because he doesn't understand how a dictionary is put together. How it does its job to not only find words but how to apply to the word in different cases. Also Sean's Bible search for "helper" doesn't show the verses where different Greek words are used. Remember Sean, just gives the English word "helper" not the Greek or Hebrew word used in the verse where the English word helper is employed. Therefore Sean doesn't understand that some verses in the Bible might employ a Greek word once, but the word helper may appear more than once. No, James Strong, or any Bible program hadn't redefined the words. Sean, forgets that the Bible wasn't originally written in English. Therefore English words had to be sought to define the ORIGINAL GREEK words used by Jesus and His apostles.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

I have friends that call me, saying "Hey, in the Bible verse it says this, but check it out in the Strongs"......




LOL

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

They are redefined in your handy dandy Strongs you preach from, using the Bible as commentary to it.

What's the fuss, I know you think the Bible is half symbolic and Strongs is literal.

PREACH IT!!!



LOL

Sean, which "words" have been redefined?

Where does anyone define Γάτα as κουλουράκι

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Sean

Then why does modern academia continue to add meanings and suggest new definitions?

Why don't they just quote the ancients verbatim?

I have no beef with the ancient teachers, but with modern redefinitionists that invent "better" words.

Modern academia is on a search for the truth as much as anyone else. Recognizing that words and languages evolve over time, and seeing the constant need to adapt to the ever-shifting comprehension of their audience, when a group of scholars sits down to translate the Bible into English, they have to recognize what words in English no longer carry the same meaning or have a different force of meaning, then they did, say fifty or one hundred years ago.

Take the word "temperance", as one of the fruits of the Spirit (and in other passages). Your average English speaker doesn't use that word and likely doesn't know what it means, so, it gets replaced with the word phrase "self-control".

Is that so wrong? No, because the underlying Greek text, ἐγκράτεια, as well as the word temperance both have a semantic range that means "self-control"

See here:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/temperance

Temperance:

1200-50; Middle English temperaunce < Anglo-French < Latin temperantia self-control.

So, it's clear that the scholars who produced the NT for the KJV, by using the word temperance, understood it from its Latin base as meaning self-control.

And it still means the same today.

So, no change in meaning occurred even though a word was changed from the KJV to say, the NASB, in order to bring the language of the Bible up to date with current usage and understanding, so the modern English speaking audience can comprehend what they are reading.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Sean

8. boethos bo-ay-thos' from 995 and theo (to run); a succorer:--helper.

1249. diakonos dee-ak'-on-os probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon or deaconess):--deacon, minister, servant.
1530. eispedao ice-pay-dah'-o from 1519 and pedao (to leap); to rush in:--run (spring) in.
1532. eistrecho ice-trekh'-o from 1519 and 5143; to hasten inward:--run in.
1632. ekcheo ek-kheh'-o, or (by variation) ekchuno ek-khoo'-no from 1537 and cheo (to pour); to pour forth; figuratively, to bestow:--gush (pour) out, run greedily (out), shed (abroad, forth), spill.
2027. epokello ep-ok-el'-lo from 1909 and okello (to urge); to drive upon the shore, i.e. to beach a vessel:--run aground.
2701. katatrecho kat-at-rekh'-o from 2596 and 5143; to run down, i.e. hasten from a tower:--run down.
3729. hormao hor-mah'-o from 3730; to start, spur or urge on, i.e. (reflexively) to dash or plunge:--run (violently), rush.
4063. peritrecho per-ee-trekh'-o from 4012 and 5143 (including its alternate); to run around, i.e. traverse:--run through.
4370. prostrecho pros-trekh'-o from 4314 and 5143 (including its alternate); to run towards, i.e. hasten to meet or join:--run (thither to, to).
4390. protrecho prot-rekh'-o from 4253 and 5143 (including its alternate); to run forward, i.e. outstrip, precede:--outrun, run before.
4482. rheo hreh'-o a primary verb; for some tenses of which a prolonged form rheuo hryoo'-o is used to flow ("run"; as water):--flow.
4890. sundrome soon-drom-ay' from (the alternate of) 4936; a running together, i.e. (riotous) concourse:--run together.
4936. suntrecho soon-trekh'-o from 4862 and 5143 (including its alternate); to rush together (hastily assemble) or headlong (figuratively):--run (together, with).
5032. tachion takh'-ee-on neuter singular of the comparative of 5036 (as adverb); more swiftly, i.e. (in manner) more rapidly, or (in time) more speedily:--out (run), quickly, shortly, sooner.
5143. trecho trekh'-o apparently a primary verb (properly, threcho; compare 2359); which uses dremo drem'-o (the base of 1408) as alternate in certain tenses; to run or walk hastily (literally or figuratively):--have course, run.
5240. huperekchuno hoop-er-ek-khoo'-no from 5228 and the alternate form of 1632; to pour out over, i.e. (passively) to overflow:--run over.
5295. hupotrecho hoop-ot-rekh'-o from 5259 and 5143 (including its alternate); to run under, i.e. (specially), to sail past:--run under.
5343. pheugo fyoo'-go apparently a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish:--escape, flee (away).




LOL






Behold, the replacement for your KJV.

Sean has a point here. Lots of preachers and teachers think they are Greek and/or Hebrew experts because they have and use a Strong's.

I've heard plenty of sermons preached more from Strong's than from the Bible.

A lot of misuse of Strong's occurs, too. Some editions also have typos or errors in the numbering system and lead to wrong entries.

For example:



Anyone who owns the edition aboves can go and look and see that the entry for "Isaac" is given the number 2664. But, when you go to 2664 in the Greek Dictionary in the back of the concordance, you find:

katapauo, from 2665 and 3937; to settle down, i.e.(lit) to colonize...

Well, anyone who has a brain and has read Genesis knows that the name Isaac means "laughter".

But the preacher I listened to who claimed God gave him insight about the name Isaac meaning to settle down and colonize as part of his sermon text in Galatians 4 had no idea his Strong's was wrong, ended up doing nothing more than bear false witness against God while thinking he was speaking divine revelation, all because he had a Strong's.

[Sean]

I understand your point Aaron, but I don't like or trust change. Some folks like it, and that's their thing.
I see 50 years down the road by looking 50 years back, and the KJV will be long gone, replaced by at least 200 translations.
Mr. Strong, Westcott/Hort etc., will be able to say "mission accomplished", amongst the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I know, I am too narrow minded, you need not remind me.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Sean has a point here. Lots of preachers and teachers think they are Greek and/or Hebrew experts because they have and use a Strong's.

I've heard plenty of sermons preached more from Strong's than from the Bible.

A lot of misuse of Strong's occurs, too. Some editions also have typos or errors in the numbering system and lead to wrong entries.

For example:



Anyone who owns the edition aboves can go and look and see that the entry for "Isaac" is given the number 2664. But, when you go to 2664 in the Greek Dictionary in the back of the concordance, you find:



Well, anyone who has a brain and has read Genesis knows that the name Isaac means "laughter".

But the preacher I listened to who claimed God gave him insight about the name Isaac meaning to settle down and colonize as part of his sermon text in Galatians 4 had no idea his Strong's was wrong, ended up doing nothing more than bear false witness against God while thinking he was speaking divine revelation, all because he had a Strong's.

Wait, this isn't just about Strong's. This is about an individuals belief that Greek scholars today can't understand first century Greek like the KJV translators. That is just plain outlandish. Go to the other thread where he says that they guess at what hieroglyphs mean? If someone wants to understand and read their Greek (not English) they can. Just because some individual[s] got the Greek wrong over the pulpit (in some cases asking my wife from the pulpit if they pronounce it correctly) that in no way proves that Strong or J.P. Green redefined the Greek words.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Modern academia is on a search for the truth as much as anyone else. Recognizing that words and languages evolve over time, and seeing the constant need to adapt to the ever-shifting comprehension of their audience, when a group of scholars sits down to translate the Bible into English, they have to recognize what words in English no longer carry the same meaning or have a different force of meaning, then they did, say fifty or one hundred years ago.

Take the word "temperance", as one of the fruits of the Spirit (and in other passages). Your average English speaker doesn't use that word and likely doesn't know what it means, so, it gets replaced with the word phrase "self-control".

Is that so wrong? No, because the underlying Greek text, ἐγκράτεια, as well as the word temperance both have a semantic range that means "self-control"

See here:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/temperance

Temperance:



So, it's clear that the scholars who produced the NT for the KJV, by using the word temperance, understood it from its Latin base as meaning self-control.

And it still means the same today.

So, no change in meaning occurred even though a word was changed from the KJV to say, the NASB, in order to bring the language of the Bible up to date with current usage and understanding, so the modern English speaking audience can comprehend what they are reading.