Before the beginning...what?

[phareztamar]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The man child is Jesus. The woman is Israel.

The vision is two-fold. It starts in heaven, and finishes on earth. The heavenly woman is mother Jerusalem from Galatians, and the man child is the church. The earthly woman is the Jerusalem which now is from Galatians, and the man is Jesus, the Christ of God. My thoughts anyway.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



Very Good.
So if the woman is Israel, then it's speaking about something in the future?
But the child was born 2,000 years ago...?
And it seems that the "war" between the angels is also future...but iniquity
was found in the archangel...when? You see the problem?

Let's roll it back: if the woman is Israel, where is the Church? Can there be
a redeemed Israel without the Church? Not according to the Apostle Paul.

"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept
upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little..."

IT'S NOT LIKE READING A BOOK THROUGH: MORE LIKE READING A PUZZLE

Brother Villa

The woman is Israel, which produced the Messiah. After producing the Messiah, and after His ascension, the woman was persecuted. She went into the wilderness during the persecutions. Thus, the dragon sought to destroy Israel but she was hidden from the dragon's fury.

Revelation 12 provides an overview of the basic flow of history from the time of Messiah's first coming.

The casting down of the dragon to the earth appears to be related to the Ascension of Christ. There is no verse that says iniquity was found in any archangel. The church is Israel under the new covenant, those who "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus".

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

The vision is two-fold. It starts in heaven, and finishes on earth. The heavenly woman is mother Jerusalem from Galatians, and the man child is the church. The earthly woman is the Jerusalem which now is from Galatians, and the man is Jesus, the Christ of God. My thoughts anyway.

The woman is crowned with twelve stars, clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. These are all symbols hearkening back to Joseph's dreams. The man-child was the one who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, therefore must first of all be the Messiah. Which makes the woman Israel.

The church shares in the destiny of the man child, since the church is the Body of Christ (see also the vision in Daniel 7 where the Son of Man represents the saints of God, which is appropriated to Jesus in the Gospels as the pre-eminent Israel or servant of God). There is no "two women" in Revelation 12.

The vision appears in heaven, of a woman, who delivers a baby boy destined to rule the earth. She (the same woman) flees into the wilderness to her prepared place. One woman.

[phareztamar]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The woman is crowned with twelve stars, clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. These are all symbols hearkening back to Joseph's dreams. The man-child was the one who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, therefore must first of all be the Messiah. Which makes the woman Israel.

The church shares in the destiny of the man child, since the church is the Body of Christ (see also the vision in Daniel 7 where the Son of Man represents the saints of God, which is appropriated to Jesus in the Gospels as the pre-eminent Israel or servant of God). There is no "two women" in Revelation 12.

The vision appears in heaven, of a woman, who delivers a baby boy destined to rule the earth. She (the same woman) flees into the wilderness to her prepared place. One woman.

By your reasoning, the woman in heaven would have had to follow Satan when he is cast into the earth. Because once he arrives with a thud on earth, he commences to go after the woman here on earth. I agree that there is only one woman, but I think chapter 12 shows us that one woman both in her spiritual reality, and her earthly one.

[peter83]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



Very Good.
So if the woman is Israel, then it's speaking about something in the future?
But the child was born 2,000 years ago...?
And it seems that the "war" between the angels is also future...but iniquity
was found in the archangel...when? You see the problem?

Let's roll it back: if the woman is Israel, where is the Church? Can there be
a redeemed Israel without the Church? Not according to the Apostle Paul.

"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept
upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little..."

IT'S NOT LIKE READING A BOOK THROUGH: MORE LIKE READING A PUZZLE

Brother Villa

Here is the church:12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went off to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

By your reasoning, the woman in heaven would have had to follow Satan when he is cast into the earth.

My reasoning is not that the woman was in heaven and then came down to the earth. The text only speaks of one woman. If you want to make up "a woman in two aspects" that's your business, I just go with what the text actually says.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

(a) The woman is Israel, which produced the Messiah. After producing the Messiah, and after His ascension, the woman was persecuted. She went into the wilderness during the persecutions. Thus, the dragon sought to destroy Israel but she was hidden from the dragon's fury.

Revelation 12 provides an overview of the basic flow of history from the time of Messiah's first coming.

(b) The casting down of the dragon to the earth appears to be related to the Ascension of Christ. (c) There is no verse that says iniquity was found in any archangel. (d) The church is Israel under the new covenant, those who "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus".

Very Good
I also believe Rev 12, is an "overview of history": and you would have done well
to have placed that sentence at the beginning.

(a) The woman did BEAR and gave birth to the Messiah, not "produced" him. But yes.
She went into hiding when she was dispersed among the nations...

(b) Focus should be on the timeline of the dragon's casting down; it almost seems as
if it was during the child's birth, etc. [Almost].

(c) But we mustn't forget the proverbs against the king of Babylon...against Tyrus!

(d) Of course she is: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them
also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold,
and one shepherd."

Yes: there is only ONE woman (nation/church). There has always been only one.

Brother Villa

[mfblume]

Revelation 12 is about Christ ascending to the right hand throne, and we are seated with him. That's not future . It's 2000 years old.

[peter83]

Ι think
Woman is Maria and symbolize Israel
Son is Jesus (?some people say that symbolize the raptured church?)
the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. is the Christian Church (both Hebrews and Gentiles)

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by mfblume

Revelation 12 is about Christ ascending to the right hand throne, and we are seated with him. That's not future . It's 2000 years old.

Yes. The Lord was certainly "...caught up unto God, and to his throne."
Yes. That certainly transpired about 2,000 years ago.

So, "...his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to
the earth...": were these saints or angels? If angels, was this a reflection of the
past, before "time" began? or was this a repetition of what actually happened
to angels, but now foretelling the coming apostasy?

Brother Villa