Visited a New Church Sunday

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by n david

Have you ever walked into a place and within moments wondered, "What in the world am I doing here?" That was me yesterday.

You see my brother, that was the first indicator it was time to depart.

Originally Posted by n david

There's a church near my home which is "non-denomination" but the Pastor was raised and attended a UPC bible school before leaving the organization.

That's the effect Bible schools have.

Originally Posted by n david

A friend of mine, who also used to be in the UPC, had helped start the church before moving out of state. When it was starting, he tried getting me to visit and told me that it was doctrinally like the UPC with exception of dress standards.

Indicator number two, use to be, we are kinda like them, but different, we have the same doctrines BUT. These are indicators that you aren't going to have fun, you might even lose precious time you may never regain. Also someone might even see you there, and become disappointed to know you would even visit.

Originally Posted by n david

The church has grown a lot in the 7 or 8 years after my friend moved away.

There are probably more McDonalds around the world than Pentecostals Churches. Now, think about this, McDonald's sell the most disgusting non food anywhere. Yet, the place is packed wall to wall. This proves that growth isn't quality. Not by a long shot. Quality not quantity. No one is getting saved in churches like that. They are all going to hell with a BrahMos missiles on their backs while on roller skates lubed with axle grease. Hey cancer grows, I don't see anyone hooping and hollering about that.

Originally Posted by n david

The church now has its own large building and has two services on Sunday. I attended the second service Sunday morning and it was a full auditorium which seats probably around 300 - 350.

My twins were tagged and checked in to their classroom and I was given a label with a code on it which matched theirs. I walked with my older daughter to her classroom where they had a bounce house, (yes inside her classroom), some mega-sized games like Connect Four and Jenga and a couple video projectors showing a countdown on the walls.

Originally Posted by n david

On my way to the auditorium, I felt the beat of the drum and the bass begin as the band started to play. So. Loud. It was dark, with the exception of some FX and strobe lights. The fog was thick really thick. Then almost the entire wall of the stage lit up with the wide video projection system. The lights came on stage and the "worship" began.

Originally Posted by n david

Most of the musicians were male and wore skinny jeans with boots. Most had t-shirts exposing their sleeve tattoos. One of the guitar players had gauges in his ears to accessorize his sleeve tat. The lady leading the service was the Pastor's wife. She had tight leggings with short cowboy boots and spikey hair.

Remember candy cigarettes? What you lay in front of the cattle is what they'll produce.

Originally Posted by n david

The band sounded great, as did the singers. For a concert, it was really good.

During a slow part of the songs, she said God was in the midst of them, but I felt nothing but the bass and a bit of a headache from the strobe lights and choking fog.

Yep, something was in the midst, it sure wasn't God.

Originally Posted by n david

After several songs, a very perky and happy lady came out and told us about how many different ways we could give to the church, including by downloading an app for making payments! We were reminded to not only tithe 10% of their salary, bonuses and any other sources of income, but also to give above that with an offering. Online viewers were directed to click a link appearing online which would take them to a secure payment website.

Originally Posted by n david

First time guests were told to fill out a contact card so we could receive a free gift in the mail. We were also asked to complete a commitment card if we decided to commit our life to Christ during the service.

Originally Posted by n david

After another song, the Pastor walked out from behind a wing on the stage and welcomed everyone to the service. He spoke about the thief who comes to steal, kill and destroy. At one point during the message, he was talking about being saved and mentioned he was raised Pentecostal. He said Pentecostals can't ever be sure they're saved because they're so afraid anything they do will send them to hell and that Pentecostals like to use fear to keep people guessing whether or not they're saved.

Yeah, so the pastor isn't afraid even when he is watching and downloading porn on his lap top. Yep. he is Mr Splinter Remover with the hardest porn flowing through his mind's eye. Be careful little eyes what you see? .

Originally Posted by n david

I just about walked out then, but I didn't. After a few more minutes, he apologized for going past his allotted 30 minute time and asked everyone to bow their heads and close their eyes while those who wanted to commit to Christ raised their hands.

Oh, didn't someone tell you that this church was doctrinally "LIKE" UPCI????

Yeah, they are like the UPCI. They have a building and the building has pews.
Yeah, they have a lot in common.

Originally Posted by n david

Then he had everyone stand and repeat a prayer for repentance and asking Christ into their hearts.

I remember now, they started to chant together this...

Pastor Moreau: "What is the law?"

First Deacon: "Not to eat meat, that is the law. Are we not men?

Congregants (in unison): "Are we not men?"

Pastor Moreau: "What is the law?"

First Deacon: "Not to go on all fours, that is the law. Are we not men?"

Congregants (in unison): "Are we not men?"

Pastor Moreau: "What is the law?"

First Deacon: "Not to spill blood, that is the law. Are we not men?"

Congregants (in unison): "Are we not men?"

Originally Posted by n david

I was happy for it to be over. I went to get my older daughter first and decided next time I need to meet all the teachers before leaving her anywhere. When I went to pick her up, one of the teachers was a guy who had black hair with bleached blonde streaks. He wore gauges in his ears, had a nose ring, a spiked bracelet and a black ring with a bunch of small spikes, skinny jeans and spiked boots. I was told this wasn't a costume.

No they're not costumes. They're dressed that way to teach the youth the way to hell. Under Jesus name and pointing children straight towards a burning abyss. Jesus isn't goth, or Emo. Blonde streaks in his hair? Skinny jeans? How do you fight the devil with that?

Originally Posted by n david

I have a hard time believing this was the same church my friend had recommended me to visit years ago. I definitely won't be going back.

Good move,

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by n david

Have you ever walked into a place and within moments wondered, "What in the world am I doing here?" That was me yesterday.

There's a church near my home which is "non-denomination" but the Pastor was raised and attended a UPC bible school before leaving the organization. A friend of mine, who also used to be in the UPC, had helped start the church before moving out of state. When it was starting, he tried getting me to visit and told me that it was doctrinally like the UPC with exception of dress standards.

The church has grown a lot in the 7 or 8 years after my friend moved away. The church now has its own large building and has two services on Sunday. I attended the second service Sunday morning and it was a full auditorium which seats probably around 300 - 350.

My twins were tagged and checked in to their classroom and I was given a label with a code on it which matched theirs. I walked with my older daughter to her classroom where they had a bounce house, (yes inside her classroom), some mega-sized games like Connect Four and Jenga and a couple video projectors showing a countdown on the walls.

On my way to the auditorium, I felt the beat of the drum and the bass begin as the band started to play. So. Loud. It was dark, with the exception of some FX and strobe lights. The fog was thick really thick. Then almost the entire wall of the stage lit up with the wide video projection system. The lights came on stage and the "worship" began.

Most of the musicians were male and wore skinny jeans with boots. Most had t-shirts exposing their sleeve tattoos. One of the guitar players had gauges in his ears to accessorize his sleeve tat. The lady leading the service was the Pastor's wife. She had tight leggings with short cowboy boots and spikey hair.

The band sounded great, as did the singers. For a concert, it was really good.

During a slow part of the songs, she said God was in the midst of them, but I felt nothing but the bass and a bit of a headache from the strobe lights and choking fog.

After several songs, a very perky and happy lady came out and told us about how many different ways we could give to the church, including by downloading an app for making payments! We were reminded to not only tithe 10% of their salary, bonuses and any other sources of income, but also to give above that with an offering. Online viewers were directed to click a link appearing online which would take them to a secure payment website.

First time guests were told to fill out a contact card so we could receive a free gift in the mail. We were also asked to complete a commitment card if we decided to commit our life to Christ during the service.

After another song, the Pastor walked out from behind a wing on the stage and welcomed everyone to the service. He spoke about the thief who comes to steal, kill and destroy. At one point during the message, he was talking about being saved and mentioned he was raised Pentecostal. He said Pentecostals can't ever be sure they're saved because they're so afraid anything they do will send them to hell and that Pentecostals like to use fear to keep people guessing whether or not they're saved. I just about walked out then, but I didn't. After a few more minutes, he apologized for going past his allotted 30 minute time and asked everyone to bow their heads and close their eyes while those who wanted to commit to Christ raised their hands. Then he had everyone stand and repeat a prayer for repentance and asking Christ into their hearts.

I was happy for it to be over. I went to get my older daughter first and decided next time I need to meet all the teachers before leaving her anywhere. When I went to pick her up, one of the teachers was a guy who had black hair with bleached blonde streaks. He wore gauges in his ears, had a nose ring, a spiked bracelet and a black ring with a bunch of small spikes, skinny jeans and spiked boots. I was told this wasn't a costume.

I have a hard time believing this was the same church my friend had recommended me to visit years ago. I definitely won't be going back.

I've seen this type of thing in ex-UPC/apostolic churches, nearly to this degree. I've been shocked at how far the other way they go. I have a theory, most UPC types have been taught so much is sinful and wrong, that when they come to the realization that not everything they've been led to believe is sinful, particularly with regard to standards, its as if they don't see anything as worldly. Indeed many ex-apostolic churches are as worldly or more so than most churches, excepting only the ultra liberal (long apostate) mainline denominations, and certain stains if charismania. Sadly, and I say this in all seriousness, yet with no guile, there is more of a church structure, more teaching, in a prosperity gospel church, than in these seeker sensitive "curches". I mean come on, even Kenneth Copeland or Benny Hinn would say thats too much. When Benny Hinn, perhaps the greatest false teacher of a generation, brings more to the table than these pastors, its time for them to close shop and get a job. What a lamentable place American christianity is in.

https://youtu.be/azqoBksweZA

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Of course the younger people love it - it's cool, it's a "sanctified night club."

And, as more and more churches blow more and more smoke, more and more young people grow up and move on with their lives, onto more "serious" things, leaving church behind.

It's all good, though, Jesus DID say He's in the pruning business...

We must regulate this. It sounds bad for the environment.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I cannot remember what we were doing but we borrowed one for a play on some occasion...We also borrowed (maybe rented) I cannot remember some kind of machine that spits out little pieces of paper...the young people did a skit about rain...I find nothing wrong with that...I love the colored lights at Brother Holmes church...our grandson came back from camp meeting and rigged up some here.... I cannot imagine smoke every night or pieces of paper raining down...but I see no more sin in that than using a microphone... the early church had neither smoke machines or microphones.....

I was in a service not long ago and we had a group that came in from another church and they had flags and all kinds of things...almost shocking...They were not asked they just jumped in and started doing their thing...I sat for a moment stunned...and then the Holy Ghost spoke to me, "you can sit here criticizing these kids or you can worship me...the song is not about them it is about me..." I admit I closed my eyes...however I began to worship and before it was over felt the presence of the Lord so strong...the kids told me later they had never been to a church like ours and they loved it...and want me to come speak at their church...

I was so ashamed of myself...little innocent young people that brought all they knew to help in a service they really knew nothing about...(Brazilian style) . and here the Mrs Know it all missionary is sitting in the pew frowning as they worship the only way they know how... Oh! Lord forgive me...help me to help others...help me to love and care and never forget if I do know more... that I am blessed....but not above them or better than them...or anyone ...

It is true God does not need my help to pour out His spirit...but I do need his help....

That was such a sweet and thought provoking post. Thank you.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

12 Things the Early Church Didn't Need to Change the World for Jesus
JOSEPH MATTERA

With the focus today on building large church edifices to hold sizable crowds, we forget that the early church exploded when they were decentralized and met in homes and catacombs. (Flickr/Jorge Lascar)
The book of Acts grants us a snapshot as to the power and effectiveness of the first-century church that transformed the world. I believe we are still called to extrapolate principles from the early church in order to fulfill our mission. One of the things that most of us take for granted is the dependence upon modern methodologies and assumptions we deem absolutely necessary today to have a successful church.

However, sometimes what we deem necessary may prove to be a stumbling block in our quest for exponential, explosive church growth.

The following are 12 things the early church didn't need to change the world:

1. A Large Central Building

With the focus today on building large church edifices to hold sizable crowds, we forget that the early church exploded when they were decentralized and met in homes and catacombs. Of course the reason for this was because Christianity was illegal and they could not build public buildings. Having smaller meeting places gave them a greater sense of community and compelled more people to lead to hold the city church together. It was truly one city church with many congregations and locations.

2. A Complete Bible

The powerful church depicted in the book of Acts did not yet have all the gospels, epistles and the book of Revelation. Furthermore, since there was no printing press, nobody walked around with a Bible! Can you imagine a church today without access to a completed Bible? (In many places today where believers are persecuted, many are without a Bible!)

In the early church, only a few had scrolls of the Old Testament and some apostolic letters that circulated among believers to be read in corporate gatherings. Yet, they turned the world upside down! Why? Because they were living epistles who depended upon oral learning and acted upon the limited revelation they had.

3. Professional Clergy

Often the first-century church only had a handful of full-time ministers. Most of the ministry was done by elders, deacons and believers who supported themselves with a vocation. Of course, the primary apostolic leaders itinerated and devoted themselves to the ministry of the Word and prayer (Acts 6:1-4).

4. A Denomination

The early church was an organic movement of voluntary associations of believers. The skeletal frame was a simple hierarchical structure that included five cluster ministry gifts (Eph. 4:11) with a team of elders and deacons (1Tim. 3). Their focus was to equip the church to do the work of the ministry (Eph. 4:12). As the church evolved, church government became more sophisticated, and the office of bishop eventually expanded to have a diocesan and metropolitan influence.

However, they were not an institutionalized, top-down, hierarchical organization with complicated canon law, protocols and traditions like present-day denominations. They would be more akin to what we would term today as "independent, network Christianity" that is presently exploding and expanding the global church.

5. An Accommodating Culture

The early church emerged as a small, counter-culture movement with opposition from both the Jewish nation and its polytheistic Roman/Greco culture. Its odds of survival were very slim (perhaps in Vegas it would be 100-1 odds). In spite of this, they not only survived but thrived because they depended upon the all-sufficient Christ as their daily bread. Many believers today fight for freedom of religion because they do not want to be inconvenienced when living out their faith.

6. A Bible School

The thought of sending promising leaders away to a university or Bible college was unheard of in the first century. The model for nurturing and equipping their leaders of the future was to mentor them in the context of their faith community. This is still the most effective way to develop strong leadership.

7. A Worship Team

The early church utilized the psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, orally passed down Scripture and sang a cappella in their small gatherings (Eph. 5:19). Can you imagine a church trying to grow today without the use of visual effects, lights and a skilled worship team? Often these accoutrements cause believers to focus more on a visceral experience than worshipping Jesus.

8. Social Media and Technology

The apostle Paul planted churches in 31 major cities and networked all the leaders together through the use of hand-delivered letters and personal visits. His work turned the world upside down without the use of planes, trains, automobiles and social media.

There is truly no substitute for personal touch when it comes to birthing a movement.

9. A Sunday School or Youth Group

In the early church there was no separating the families. The children, youth and parents all worshipped and learned the word together. Of course, some were taken aside for private instruction (2 Tim. 2:2), but the concept of Sunday Schools and youth groups was unheard of. Yet, they still kept their families in the faith and perpetuated the gospel for generations.

10. Professional Therapy and Counseling

In the early church—people received Scripture-based admonition (Heb. 3:12,13), prayer and at times deliverance from Satanic oppression—but there was no psychological counseling and therapy (or drugs). Yet, they rejoiced always—even when their material goods were confiscated and they were persecuted (Phil. 4:4; Heb.10:32-34).

11. Political Affiliation

Nowadays, most Christians are affiliated to some extent with a political party and even depend upon it to buttress their faith and values. The early church only promoted and affiliated in public with Christ's kingdom. They believed that affiliating with a heathen government like Rome compromised their allegiance to the reign of God.

12. A Financial War-Chest

Many church plants and congregations today struggle to survive due to a lack of finances (many church plants even close due to this). The early church did not have much money (Acts 3:6) but subsisted on radical love, which included the sharing of their material possessions and financial support (Acts 2:44,45; 4:32; 2 Cor. 8-9). This interdependence created synergy, which released great power to spread the gospel (Acts 4:32, 33).

Finally, although the methodologies we utilize today can be useful, we should never allow them to replace proven biblical principles the early church used to turn the world upside down (Acts 17: 6).

Dr. Joseph Mattera

Wow. Being a house church Christian, I have to admit that I love this post!

Most early revivals started in barns, fields, farm houses, brush arbors, and private homes like that found on Bonnie Brae St. If you look closely the traditional "churches" with all their buildings and props opposed these revivals. This opposition often ignited controversy and caused the news of the revival to spread. But groups gathering in these revivals soon took up the form and fashion of what they saw around them and had experienced in their denominational churches. They established human organizations. They acquired buildings. Then came pews, platforms, pulpits, salaried pastors, carpet, air conditioning, padded pews, light systems, sound systems, overhead projectors, buses for bus ministries, salaried music teams, choirs, praise teams, multimedia productions, websites, and...smoke machines. Oh, and who can forget, the never ending... building programs? Now, they just have to go back and build everything all over again... only bigger. Enter the... mega-churches. Elaborate designs like that at Crystal Cathedral and churches with coffee shops, book stores, and kiosks from which you can electronically submit your tithes and offerings.

And so we pray that God blesses... our system. Bring revival to... our system. But these systems are slowly loosing their relevance and appeal. In fact... more people are leaving our "churches" than are coming to them. Even pastors are leaving ministry at an alarming rate because the burnout is epidemic.

What if revival can still be found where it was found before? What if we should return to, or at least revisit, having smaller more intimate groups seeking God in barns, fields, farm houses, brush arbors, and homes? What if we had a network of homes filled with revival like what was seen back when the Pentecostal movement started on Bonnie Brae St.?

Check out these pics... revival flames ignited in these small, simple, and private places. And as a result, the world witnessed the fastest growing 20th century religious movement ever. It can happen again.

[Sister Alvear]

We have many house churches in Brazil but we also have church buildings...I love those house churches...seems like a community.

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Ask yourself WHY a smoke machine. What would motivate the use of it?

I asked that question too. It's so the lights show up better, and they do. It's not overwhelming.

[Sherri]

I'm 60 years old, so there are things that I don't relate to. That doesn't make them sin. If this younger generation likes crazy lights or haze, I don't care, as long as they're worshiping God. Every Sunday, we have people give their lives to Jesus, getting baptized and moving into a completely new life. We have so many receive the Holy Ghost, and their lives are transformed.

So, if lights and smoke are wrong, we sure are having good results. Some people are way too judgmental about things that the Bible didn't condemn. If the Word says it's wrong, then it's wrong.

And like Sis. A said, where are microphones and speakers in the Bible? Where is Air Conditioning, for that matter? I bet the first time someone hooked up a sound system in a church, people freaked out a little.

Having said that.....if you go visit a church, and you feel a check in your spirit and there is no power of God there,......RUN.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sherri

I'm 60 years old, so there are things that I don't relate to. That doesn't make them sin. If this younger generation likes crazy lights or haze, I don't care, as long as they're worshiping God. Every Sunday, we have people give their lives to Jesus, getting baptized and moving into a completely new life. We have so many receive the Holy Ghost, and their lives are transformed.

So, if lights and smoke are wrong, we sure are having good results. Some people are way too judgmental about things that the Bible didn't condemn. If the Word says it's wrong, then it's wrong.

And like Sis. A said, where are microphones and speakers in the Bible? Where is Air Conditioning, for that matter? I bet the first time someone hooked up a sound system in a church, people freaked out a little.

Having said that.....if you go visit a church, and you feel a check in your spirit and there is no power of God there,......RUN.

Microphones are compared KISS/Deep Purple/David Bowie fog machines baptized in Jesus name for church use? Sis, these aren't items being employed by Christians to share the message of Christ. The smoke machine, laser lights, flash pots, and disco ball are just props to IMITATE Gary Glitter's rock show under Jesus name? Jesus is the architect, so if we understand His plan, He said the foolishness of preaching was to be employed, not the foolishness of Glam Heavy Metal. 60 years old? So you were a conservative Apostolic cloistered in a UPCI prayer room? Therefore you may of missed Alice Cooper, KISS, or the advent of the Sex Pistols. You were safely tucked away in the convent San UPC. Which is a plus, not a negative. But, like Eve, you feel as a wee lass you missed out on so much. While I was out booing John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever. You were praying in tongues in a prayer room. It's like when ministers (not just Apostolic) buy Harley Davidson they dress like 1%ers. Sometimes they go so deep in the belly of the beast they end up on Youtube singing songs about a Honky Tonk?

Sister, sometimes it isn't about Jesus having to preach against a denim cutoff, fingerless gloves, and a pair of KD's sunglasses. Jesus only said to flee the very appearance of evil. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a church that blows of pious decorum to become Henry Rollins and Black Flag, is slouching towards Gomorrah. Good God from Zion, you get good results? Seriously? Jesus was looking for good results? By acting just like the groups around Him? When the stoics questioned Him, then He should of said; "that's ok" When the pharisees, and sadducees questioned Him; "that could be possible either way."

He didn't, He said what was unpopular, He didn't toe the party line.

You can't win the world with the world, and then sneak in a little piety. If your salt loses its saltiness it is worthless. Look around you for crying out loud. This country is becoming the Kingdom of porn, homosexuals, drugs, and blatant stupidity. Good results? Giving them what they want? Smoke show with a Christian band singing "I'm gonna study my Bible all night, and Pray everyday" to the tune of the KISS song? Oh, let's not forget the KABUKI make up!

So, if having the preacher wearing a t-shirt with the goat head of Mendes, and the words "Hail Jesus!" is thought of as wrong by some. As long as you are SURE that you are having good results all is well?

This is how thise works boys and girls, you have a poster who is in a church leadership position. They say things like...

"If this younger generation likes crazy lights or haze, I DON'T CARE."

You all need to concentrate on this portion of the sentence. For the love of God and where this country is heading. Stop a look at this, seriously. Now, the I don't care, is QUICKLY followed by the sentences which are given to stop any God fearing Apostolic dead in their tracks. The "I don't care" is qualified by the two words "as long."

"as long as they're worshiping God."

The apostle said that there are gods many, lords many 1 Corinthians 8:5. 2 Corinthians 11:4 tells us "For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough." Who ARE they really worshipping? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everyone chant like Dominican monks, but flash pots, smoke machines, laser lights bouncing of a disco ball? Seriously?

Again,

We are told "If this younger generation likes crazy lights or haze, I DON'T CARE. AS LONG as they're worshiping God."


Then we are supposed to puppy down when we are told this?


"Every Sunday, we have people give their lives to Jesus, getting baptized and moving into a completely new life. We have so many receive the Holy Ghost, and their lives are transformed."

Yet, these words are spoken by every single leader of any cult, schism, or denomination under the sun. My lands people, this country is riding the Crazy Train. Sadly Churchanity is too busy counting the bodies sitting in pews, and acting Christinish in the eyes of their leadership.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Sherri

I'm 60 years old, so there are things that I don't relate to. That doesn't make them sin. If this younger generation likes crazy lights or haze, I don't care, as long as they're worshiping God. Every Sunday, we have people give their lives to Jesus, getting baptized and moving into a completely new life. We have so many receive the Holy Ghost, and their lives are transformed.

So, if lights and smoke are wrong, we sure are having good results. Some people are way too judgmental about things that the Bible didn't condemn. If the Word says it's wrong, then it's wrong.

And like Sis. A said, where are microphones and speakers in the Bible? Where is Air Conditioning, for that matter? I bet the first time someone hooked up a sound system in a church, people freaked out a little.

Having said that.....if you go visit a church, and you feel a check in your spirit and there is no power of God there,......RUN.

Im not anti tech or convenience and if its working and delivering results, AWESOME.

Its personal preference I guess. When I came back to God I had to draw very strict lines between the things of God and the world...things that before I wouldnt have given a second thought about now I felt checks in my spirit over.

On the fog machine and strobe thing, as long as people are being reached, being filled, turning from sin and being discipled into mature active Christians..go for it!