Putin smarter than some on AFF

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

Dan 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God forever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

Well, here are two verses, maybe your Bible doesn't have them in it........

You can cut and paste these back in.

Let's take these verses very literally for a moment. Is God personally changing every season, or did he set things in motion for them to change on their own? Does God give men generally the ability to gain wisdom and knowledge, or is the Spirit hovering over every preschooler teaching them their ABC's? Did God bring about civil government in general, or is every county council member divinely ordained by God? Certainly God personally chose some kings and princes. But you guys would have us believe that John Locke was wrong and that kings do have the divine right to rule instead of men having the divine right to choose their own rulers.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Let's take these verses very literally for a moment. Is God personally changing every season, or did he set things in motion for them to change on their own? Does God give men generally the ability to gain wisdom and knowledge, or is the Spirit hovering over every preschooler teaching them their ABC's? Did God bring about civil government in general, or is every county council member divinely ordained by God? Certainly God personally chose some kings and princes. But you guys would have us believe that John Locke was wrong and that kings do have the divine right to rule instead of men having the divine right to choose their own rulers.

John Locke was no prophet of God.

It sounds like you are more of a Deist than anything else. Do you not believe in Providence?

If God doesn't put the city council member in his position, what makes you think He even knows your name?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

John Locke was no prophet of God.

It sounds like you are more of a Deist than anything else. Do you not believe in Providence?

If God doesn't put the city council member in his position, what makes you think He even knows your name?

You are very evasive in your answers, as well as creating straw men.

Firstly, when did I call Locke a prophet of God? Locke taught divine intervention. He believed God intervened by granting men the right to choose their own rulers.


Secondly, I plainly said God does indeed pick some rulers specifically. I think Locke would agree.

But you never commented on what I said about the context of the verses Monterey posted.

Originally Posted by Monterrey
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

Dan 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God forever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding

So is the context one of God choosing every single leader? No, any more than verse 21 of Daniel 2 demonstrates that the Holy Spirit personally teaches each preschooler his ABC's, hovers over the MA holder as he earns his PhD, or literally changes each season every year.

Exodus 15:26.....

I am the LORD that healeth thee.

Yet some don't get healed. He's also the God that removes and sets up kings. That does not mean every single king is chosen by God. It means setting up kings is one of the things he does, like healing.

[Monterrey]

Well, so much for what the Word says. When you won't even let the Word speak for itself then who am I to change your mind?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Well, so much for what the Word says. When you won't even let the Word speak for itself then who am I to change your mind?

That's what many ministers say on a variety of subjects. They all claim to be just "repeating what the word says".

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You are very evasive in your answers, as well as creating straw men.

Nonsense.

Firstly, when did I call Locke a prophet of God? Locke taught divine intervention. He believed God intervened by granting men the right to choose their own rulers.

Locke was not a prophet sent by God to teach us bible truth. So what Locke says is not authoritative. I like Locke. I think his "On Education" is a must read for any prospective parent. But he was no apostle or prophet, and had no message from God, and therefore his thoughts on the divine institutions of government (or lack thereof) are not authoritative unless they repeat the Bible's declarations.

Secondly, I plainly said God does indeed pick some rulers specifically. I think Locke would agree.

Do you follow Locke, or the Bible? Again, Locke is irrelevent to the discussion.

But since you said "God picks some rulers specifically", can you elaborate on how anyone could know which ones that would be? How does one go about determining if a ruler has been, or has not been, raised up by God to their position?

But you never commented on what I said about the context of the verses Monterey posted.

Very well, then:

Proverbs 8:12-16 KJV I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. (13) The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. (14) Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. (15) By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. (16) By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

There is both a general application, and a specific application, of this passage.
1. General. Speaking in general terms, this is simply saying that kings reign and princes decree justice (righteousness) by means of wisdom, which of course comes from God. so the application is that any ruler who exercises justice and righteousness and right judgment does so by wisdom which comes from God.

2. Specific. Speaking in more specific terms, Christ is the power and wisdom of God (1 Corinthians ch 1:24, 30), and therefore kings reign and princes rule by Him (that is, by His permission and prerogative).This is in keeping with Matthew ch 28:18 where Christ declared that all authority in heaven and in earth has been given to Him, from which it follows that nobody rules or reign outside of Christ's authorization. And this is further reinforced and confirmed by the apostle Paul who taught us in Romans ch 13:1, 4, and 6 that all ruling authorities are ordained by God and that "there is no power (authority) but of God".

That alone refutes the notion that anyone in any position of authority got there by any means other than the Providence of God.

Daniel 2:20-21 KJV Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: (21) And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

God changes the times and seasons. This does not refer to summer, fall, winter, spring, but to the "times and seasons" of human societies, and God most certainly is affirmed by the prophet to change them. Further, the prophet affirms that God removes kings, and sets up kings. To deny this is to deny the inspiration of the Bible and to fall into atheism.

But you say He only sets up "some" kings, and removes "some" kings, but not others. Did the prophet say God removes and sets up SOME kings? No, he did not. And he goes on to affirm that he meant what he said about God's superintendance of human government:

Nebuchadnezzar had a dream in which it was said to him:

Daniel 4:17 KJV This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Daniel gave the interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream and confirmed what was told to the king:

Daniel 4:24-26 KJV This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king: (25) That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. (26) And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.

Notice: The Divine Message from God was that "The Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will". This is nothing less than the plain declaration that God rules over human society, and gives it to whoever He chooses. This necessarily means that anyone in a position of authority in human society has been given that position by God. There is no way to limit this declaration to "some" rulers, but not others. If a ruler can come into power APART from the authorization of God, then the Most High does NOT in fact "rule in the kingdom of men" and does NOT in fact "give it to whomsoever He will." To deny this is to deny the plain statements of Scripture, and would be nothing less than practical atheism.

So is the context one of God choosing every single leader? No, any more than verse 21 of Daniel 2 demonstrates that the Holy Spirit personally teaches each preschooler his ABC's, hovers over the MA holder as he earns his PhD, or literally changes each season every year.

Daniel and the seasons have been addressed, so let me address the other remarks about children getting wisdom from God, students, etc.

Wisdom and understanding come from God:

Exodus 28:3 KJV And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

ALL who are "wise-hearted" got it from God. Do you deny this? Do you deny the plain declaration of God Himself? Just in case one might miss it, He repeats the claim:

Exodus 31:6 KJV And I, behold, I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: and in the hearts of all that are wise hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee;

In case anyone missed it twice, He speaks yet a third time:

Exodus 35:35 KJV Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, even of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work.

Concerning children learning their ABCs, Jesus said this:

Matthew 10:30 KJV But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

And James said this:

James 1:16-17 KJV Do not err, my beloved brethren. (17) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


Since wisdom and understanding comes from God, and the ability to read is a good thing, and even the very hairs of our head are numbered by God, it follows that God is interested in the minutest details of our being. God forms us in the womb, God controls the womb, God shapes us and brings us forth, God gives us capacities and abilities, and makes knowledge available to us. God controls our circumstances, He determines into what family we were born, in what society, in what time, in what culture. He determines how many hairs we have and keeps track of each and every one.

So, it is perfectly Biblical to accept the idea that God sovereignly superintends and oversees our development, and the development of every human being, from learning how to eat, how to say "Mama", all the way to our salvation, justification, and glorification, and everything in between. And this applies to every human on the planet who ever lived, lives, or will live.

To deny this would be nothing less than atheism.

Exodus 15:26.....



Yet some don't get healed. He's also the God that removes and sets up kings. That does not mean every single king is chosen by God. It means setting up kings is one of the things he does, like healing.

You have made an error in reasoning. The analogy would be "Yet some don't get healed. Some kings aren't set up by God, therefore some healings aren't caused by God." Do you believe anyone besides God can heal diseases? Is God in competition with anyone else in the field of healing?

I am the LORD who heals ALL THY DISEASES, meaning any disease that is healed, is necessarily healed by God. Further, God heals all the diseases we have. Yet God also promised that if His people sinned, He would send plagues and diseases upon them. Therefore, God has not promised to heal every single human being's diseases at all times and all places. And therefore, your analogy is false and misleading.

The fact is the Bible teaches that God rules over all things, there is no authority except what God puts in place, God appoints whoever He desires over human society.

This is not the "divine right of kings", however, for nobody has a right to sin and do wrong. The divine right belief was the idea that since God established the king as sovereign over the nation, the king could do whatever he wanted and was accountable to nobody. But that is not how it works. The king is accountable to God, as are all rulers, magistrates, judges, leaders, janitors, shoeshine boys, and forum posters. Those in authority are put there expressly for the purpose of establishing righteousness. If they fail to do so, they will suffer the consequences, and oftentimes those consequences involve God removing them from power.

If a people suffer under an evil tyrant, one has to ask why? Simple: God ordains rulers whom He thinks is best for carrying out His ultimate purposes. It may be that a nation of people are sinful, and God sends correction and punishment in the form of a tyrant (or even a foreign conqueror). It may be that God raises up a leader who by his own willful sin and depravity descends into rebellion and iniquity and oppression, and so God allows such a one to rule in order to demonstrate to all and sundry the evils that result from rulers who will not obey God, in order to teach people the necessity of godly and righteous government. It may be that God wishes to bring liberty to a people, but cannot do it until they have been made to feel just how painful despotism and unrighteous government really is, so that they will be moved to throw off said tyranny.

In any event, God rules in the kingdom of men, and appoints over it whoever He wills.

[Esaias]

As for John Locke, I am not sure you really understand his beliefs. After his Two Treatises on government, he wrote a commentary/synopsis on several Pauline epistles, including Romans. I include here for your enjoyment a brief quotation from his synopsis on romans ch 13:

That St. Paul, in this direction to the romans, does not so much describe the magistrates that then were in Rome, as tells whence they, and all magistrates, everywhere, have their authority; and for what end they have it, and should use it. And this he does, as becomes his prudence, to avoid bringing any imputation on christians, from heathen magistrates, especially those insolent and vicious ones of Rome, who could not brook any thing to be told them as their duty, and so might be apt to interpret such plain truths, laid down in a dogmatical way, into sauciness, sedition, or treason, a scandal cautiously to be kept off from the christian doctrine! nor does he, in what he says, in the least flatter the roman emperor, let it be either Claudius, as some think, or Nero, as others, who then was in possession of that empire. For he here speaks of the higher powers, i. e. the supreme, civil power, which is, in every commonwealth, derived from God, and is of the same extent everywhere, i. e. is absolute and unlimited by any thing, but the end for which God gave it, viz. the good of the people, sincerely pursued, according to the best of the skill of those who share that power, and so not to be resisted. But, how men come by a rightful title to this power, or who has that title, he is wholly silent, and says nothing of it. To [405] have meddled with that, would have been to decide of civil rights, contrary to the design and business of the gospel, and the example of our Saviour, who refused meddling in such cases with this decisive question, “Who made me a judge, or divider, over you?” Luke xii. 14.

(source can be read here: http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/lo...pauls-epistles - bolding and color emphasis mine)

Notice, that he wholly affirms that the supreme authority or civil power is derived from God and is absolute and unlimited in anything except the Divine Purpose for which God gave the authority. He also states this is true of "every commonwealth" ie every single country. He then says that the mechanism by which men are placed into the position of wielding this civil power is not described by Paul, who preferred not to "meddle in local politics" contrary to the design of the gospel and example of the Saviour. Whether Locke is right or wrong, he does affirm that the civil power comes from God in every single commonwealth, and concerning every single magistrate. Or in other words, every single magistrate in every single commonwealth gets his/her authority from God.

I do not see where he affirms "some rulers are ordained by God, but not others."

[Monterrey]

Originally Posted by Originalist

That's what many ministers say on a variety of subjects. They all claim to be just "repeating what the word says".

That is not a bad "claim" to do in circumstances and situations. You know the Word does say this.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;....

You seem to have a very cynical view of Pentecost since you have been burned, and that is understandable. We all go through fires that form us. But if we are not careful we tend to do the proverbial "throwing the baby out with the bath water".

Just because many ministers say something does not mean it is wrong.

Now, back to God placing kings and powers upon thrones or dominions...

The very idea of Matthew 28. Let's take this idea of power.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Now if Jesus has all power then any power that exists is because of his delegation of that power.... agreed?

You can't have all power and others have power because then you no longer have ALL power.

The powers that exist are there because of His delegating of that power. Yet.. He still controls it.

So, upon this premise we can deduce that if Putin has power then God gave it and he is there because of God.

This isn't hard my friend.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

That is not a bad "claim" to do in circumstances and situations. You know the Word does say this.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;....

You seem to have a very cynical view of Pentecost since you have been burned, and that is understandable. We all go through fires that form us. But if we are not careful we tend to do the proverbial "throwing the baby out with the bath water".

Just because many ministers say something does not mean it is wrong.

Now, back to God placing kings and powers upon thrones or dominions...

The very idea of Matthew 28. Let's take this idea of power.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Now if Jesus has all power then any power that exists is because of his delegation of that power.... agreed?

You can't have all power and others have power because then you no longer have ALL power.

The powers that exist are there because of His delegating of that power. Yet.. He still controls it.

So, upon this premise we can deduce that if Putin has power then God gave it and he is there because of God.

This isn't hard my friend.

I will have more time later today to answer Esias' long post in more detail.

However, you are making a point here that he also made, so I will address it now.

By your line of reasoning in Matthew 28:19, we don't need any earthly civil governments at all. Jesus has all authority. However, it really does not matter. Matthew 28:19 cannot be used to justify your puppet master claims. We are not robots. Yes, God does work behind the scenes and intervenes in the affairs of man. Any accusations of Deism on my part are false. Furthermore, as we will see later, there are instances in the Bible where men created governments against the will of God. You cannot have it both ways.


Finally, it is rather silly of you to interject my personal business into this discussion, and a warped perception of it at that. I'm sure there are plenty of scholars out there who have never been "burned" who would also refute your extreme teaching. So, I ask you to refrain from using such a tactic again.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

That is not a bad "claim" to do in circumstances and situations. You know the Word does say this.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;....

You seem to have a very cynical view of Pentecost since you have been burned, and that is understandable. We all go through fires that form us. But if we are not careful we tend to do the proverbial "throwing the baby out with the bath water".

Just because many ministers say something does not mean it is wrong.

Now, back to God placing kings and powers upon thrones or dominions...

The very idea of Matthew 28. Let's take this idea of power.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Now if Jesus has all power then any power that exists is because of his delegation of that power.... agreed?

You can't have all power and others have power because then you no longer have ALL power.

The powers that exist are there because of His delegating of that power. Yet.. He still controls it.

So, upon this premise we can deduce that if Putin has power then God gave it and he is there because of God.

This isn't hard my friend.

I will have more time later today to answer Esias' long post in more detail.

However, you are making a point here that he also made, so I will address it now.

By your line of reasoning in Matthew 28:19, we don't need any earthly civil governments at all. Jesus has all authority. However, it really does not matter. Matthew 28:19 cannot be used to justify your puppet master claims. We are not robots. Yes, God does work behind the scenes and intervenes in the affairs of man. Any accusations of Deism on my part are false. Furthermore, as we will see later, there are instances in the Bible where men created governments against the will of God. You cannot have it both ways.


Finally, it is rather silly of you to interject my personal business into this discussion, and a warped perception of it at that. I'm sure there are plenty of scholars out there who have never been "burned" who would also refute your extreme teaching. So, I ask you to refrain from using such a tactic again.