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04-17-2017, 06:32 PM
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Believe, Obey, Declare
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Tupelo Ms.
Posts: 3,912
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Re: Refuting Christian Zionism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Are you seriously asking me this question? If you are serious, it really makes me question some things.
You are basically asking me if I am a futurist.
And I'm like "Really? You're asking me this? How long have we talked about prophecy?"
Or do you actually believe the historical interpretation of prophecy includes a future tribulation and a future Antichrist? If that's the case, then whew! I have to go back to square one and clear things up with you about the differences between futurism and historicism.
But, just to help everyone out, I do NOT believe Antichrist is "yet to come", there are many antichrists and have been since the first century according to John.
I believe tribulation for the saints has been a fact of life from Abel's time and will be until Jesus returns.
I believe the "time of great tribulation" mentioned in Matthew 24 referred primarily if not completely to events in the first century.
Daniel's seventieth week was completed with no gaps yet to be fulfilled.
This is all historicism 101.
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But but what about what Bro. Baxter says????? Lol
Actually your point makes a ton of sense. Are there any good historicism books you can recommend...Maybe ones that debate and refute other views?
__________________
Blessed are the merciful for they SHALL obtain mercy.
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04-17-2017, 06:43 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,161
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Re: Refuting Christian Zionism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Are you seriously asking me this question? If you are serious, it really makes me question some things.
You are basically asking me if I am a futurist.
And I'm like "Really? You're asking me this? How long have we talked about prophecy?"
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You are not making forthright answers.
I asked if you believe in a future tribulation and you said, "What tribulation? The fake futurist tribulation? Or the Biblical one?" So I never did get my answer from that. So, I asked again if there is a future tribulation before the millennium.
Quote:
Or do you actually believe the historical interpretation of prophecy includes a future tribulation and a future Antichrist? If that's the case, then whew! I have to go back to square one and clear things up with you about the differences between futurism and historicism.
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Historicism has elements of futurism in it. I am asking what elements are yet future in your view.
Quote:
But, just to help everyone out, I do NOT believe Antichrist is "yet to come", there are many antichrists and have been since the first century according to John.
I believe tribulation for the saints has been a fact of life from Abel's time and will be until Jesus returns.
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Do you look at antichrist as different from the beast, then , as I believe it should be understood? If so, is the beast of Rev 13 future?
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I believe the "time of great tribulation" mentioned in Matthew 24 referred primarily if not completely to events in the first century.
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Since the beast is not the antichrist, what do you say specifically about the beast? Who was it? Arr you referring to the antichrist in your view when you say beast, and saying the beast was in the first century?
In all our chats you never actually laid out your detailed view on historicism. We were laying out details of ours and people would ask for more or debate it. But we never saw any details of your view laid out for us. You just either agreed or disagreed with various views.
I know Historicism agrees with a lot of my views on Matt 24, but it also gets into centuries in Revelation where various events in history are allegedly fit into the trumpets, etc., spanning centuries, rather than all of that taking place in Jerusalem in the first century.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Last edited by mfblume; 04-17-2017 at 07:12 PM.
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04-17-2017, 06:47 PM
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This is still that!
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sebastian, FL
Posts: 9,650
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Re: Refuting Christian Zionism
Quote:
Originally Posted by jediwill83
But but what about what Bro. Baxter says????? Lol
Actually your point makes a ton of sense. Are there any good historicism books you can recommend...Maybe ones that debate and refute other views?
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you can start here:
https://www.whitehorsemedia.com/prod...ime-delusions/
Last edited by Amanah; 04-17-2017 at 06:55 PM.
Reason: fixing the link
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04-17-2017, 09:33 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,744
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Re: Refuting Christian Zionism
Quote:
Originally Posted by jediwill83
But but what about what Bro. Baxter says????? Lol
Actually your point makes a ton of sense. Are there any good historicism books you can recommend...Maybe ones that debate and refute other views?
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THE best book on the subject I have found is Elliott's Horae Apocalypticae, a four volume commentary on Revelation. He deals extensively with numerous competing views.
https://harvestherald.wordpress.com/...apocalypticae/
Barne's Notes on Revelation includes a lot of important information in the Preface supplied by the editor (not sure if that part of his commentary on Revelation is online, though).
I have a commentary on Revelation (hand signed even!) by an apostolic minister (ALJC) named Daniel Wilhelm. Great guy, by the way. He is postmillennialist, though. His commentary refutes futurism but he wrote it before preterism became well known so he doesn't address preterism. It's what I would call a "popular commentary", he doesn't get too in depth or technical, but it was a good read.
You can get it here: https://www.amazon.com/Revelation-hi.../dp/1560436352
Apparently I'm going to have to write a book myself, as brother Blume seems rather insistent that I have not explained things too well.
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04-17-2017, 09:38 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,744
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Re: Refuting Christian Zionism
Brother Blume, give me a bit and I will lay it out, line upon line. A sort of Apostolic Eschatology 101, if you will. I'll post it when I get it typed up, maybe tonight Lord willing.
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04-17-2017, 10:12 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 40,250
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Re: Refuting Christian Zionism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
Jesus had compassion and offered loving warnings for sinners. However, I don't believe anyone would ever dispute that Christ's harshest words were reserved for the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the religiously self-righteous.
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Pharisees and Sadducees were leadership who knew better. They were directly related to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.
Modern "Jews" over in New York, Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Boca Raton, and Israelis over in Israel. Haven't a clue concerning Biblical Israelism. Not one of them could trace their family genealogy back to Zerubbabel, let alone Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.
They're descendants from Spaniards and Eastern European converts to Medieval Rabbinical Judaism. They had nothing to do with rebellion at Mount Sinai, their ancestors never crossed through on dry land between the parted Red Sea. Their ancestors didn't crucify Christ. So why in the name of the Bible would Jesus have to come back and kill these people? Beat them into submission so they will accept Christianity? Your eschatology is taking things which happened in the past and hurling them into the far flung never ever land. My lands, it is like believing the world is flat, and that little green men live on Mars. Actually Modern Jews hate what you purpose, that God is coming back to cause the biggest blood bath that would make Nazi Holocaust look like Bedtime with Barney.
Let me give you advice.
Question an eschatology that hinges more on current events, then on book,chapter, and verse.
We are to preach the GOOD NEWS
Not the BAD NEWS
Doomsday cults are fueled by bad news, they really love it.
The book of Revelation is about Jesus Christ and His victory.
Not the Antichrist, 666, and ISIS chopping off heads.
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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04-17-2017, 10:14 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 40,250
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Re: Refuting Christian Zionism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah
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Well look at Sister Amanah.
You deserve a cookie!
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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04-17-2017, 10:54 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,161
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Re: Refuting Christian Zionism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Brother Blume, give me a bit and I will lay it out, line upon line. A sort of Apostolic Eschatology 101, if you will. I'll post it when I get it typed up, maybe tonight Lord willing.
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Yeah, like the preterism 101 over on the esch. section.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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04-17-2017, 11:00 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 40,250
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Re: Refuting Christian Zionism
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
Yeah, like the preterism 101 over on the esch. section.
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Yeah, better keep it over there are we might get banished.
I am just about ready to post my Elaine Pagels thread!
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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04-18-2017, 01:11 AM
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Isaiah 56:4-5
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SOUTH ZION
Posts: 11,307
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Re: Refuting Christian Zionism
And let's not forget about the Jews in Hollywood.
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