Christian Persecution increasing

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Also wear long beard, long hair, and shepherd's cloak.

My point is that you stand on the shoulders of Trinitarian men of God who pushed translation and history itself to where we are today, that you might partake in truths and experiences in God they could have only dreamed of. You judge and condemn them with impunity, using their translations, congregational church structures, music, songs, and precious liberties they fought, and sometimes died for. They are very much a part of your history, though you curse them for their often limited understanding.

Excuse me, but I love you enough to tell you the truth here. Yes, you sound so tough and logical. Yes, your brazenly arrogant fundamentalism is noted. You have the respect of the tiny mutual admiration society who pat you on the back and feed your house sized ego. But at the end of the day, you haven't accomplished half as much for God as men like Luther, Tyndale, and Wesley, and they didn't have half the understanding as you do. What's your excuse?

Your spoiled, proud, arrogant, judgemental, and cold hearted. And to make matters worse, these are so deeply settled in your personality, you count them as virtues, and will scoff at my constructive critique. But I love you no less.

These persecuted Christians may not have all the truth we have. But they have guts and heart, something too many Apostolics lack. Oh, we sound tough....in our own pulpits, at our own rallies, But having been in the Army, I'll tell you this...I'd trust these Christians in a fox hole with me before I'd trust most of the blowhards I've known in Apostolic pulpits.

These Christians deserve our prayers and support. Because there isn't much preventing us from being next.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

My point is that you stand on the shoulders of Trinitarian men of God who pushed translation and history itself to where we are today, that you might partake in truths and experiences in God they could have only dreamed of. You judge and condemn them with impunity, using their translations, congregational church structures, music, songs, and precious liberties they fought, and sometimes died for. They are very much a part of your history, though you curse them for their often limited understanding.

Trinitarians didn't write the Original Greek.

Aquila I check any translation with the original Greek.

Your argument is once again baseless. Aquila, also this above quote from you begs in more questions? Do you believe somehow that the translators of the KJV or any other English or Spanish translations are skewed, or erroneous because of their agendas? Now, because you turn your answer into a tome, please just answer yes or no.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Excuse me, but I love you enough to tell you the truth here. Yes, you sound so tough and logical. Yes, your brazenly arrogant fundamentalism is noted.

Thank you for your love. But you posed that love as tough love? Because you are saying it as if I was your child, and you are saying "Timmy, I want you to know I love you enough to beat you when I think you are wrong." Arrogant? So, if you believe you are right, and show evidence of your correctness for your argument you are arrogant? OK, you are arrogant as well. We will move on. Please look up Psychological Projecting. You will be surprised how many people tend to lean that way in an argument.
[
QUOTE=Aquila;1479090]
You have the respect of the tiny mutual admiration society who pat you on the back and feed your house sized ego. But at the end of the day, you haven't accomplished half as much for God as men like Luther, Tyndale, and Wesley, and they didn't have half the understanding as you do. What's your excuse?[/quote]

Well, since you haven't studied out your material, you can't read or speak German, Greek, or Latin. You only can regurgitate whatever you surf on Google. This only causes more question begging? Roman Catholics (not lay people) but scholars will disagree with you. Eastern Orthodox would disagree with you. What are you saying is the accomplishment? Translations? traditional Catholics hold issue with Luther's translation. Would you happen to know what that is without having to search Google for your answer? You would be surprised. Yet, Luther was a Catholic, not what you believe at all. So, he didn't accomplish much with you.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Your spoiled, proud, arrogant, judgemental, and cold hearted.

Aquila, I really think you should take a 24hr breather before you post to me. Or anyone else who disagrees with you as such a degree as I do. Another thing you should keep in mind when posting o a forum. Never allow the computer screen to make up for what you don't have in person. Meaning never post in a manner you could not carry into a face to face meeting.
All you are doing in the above is just making a shopping list which you will never add remedy. If you were to meet anyone who you just posted the above to you may not, or you may not have the mature power enough to deal with the rebuttal?

Originally Posted by Aquila

And to make matters worse, these are so deeply settled in your personality, you count them as virtues, and will scoff at my constructive critique. But I love you no less.

Just like I posted. You make your shopping list, and never offer anything else. Sadly, you are an intellectual coward. You make statements concerning beliefs, but when refuted? You just offer love and sweetness of prayer, and place the joker on ignore. Good job you win a colored pencil.

Aquila, man up buddy.

Originally Posted by Aquila

These persecuted Christians may not have all the truth we have.

We? Again, please give it 24hr cooling off period before you post.

Originally Posted by Aquila

But they have guts and heart, something too many Apostolics lack.

Oh, I thought you would be more focused on me, and forget to give Apostolics a bloody lip. But, you can't help yourself.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Oh, we sound tough....in our own pulpits, at our own rallies, But having been in the Army, I'll tell you this...I'd trust these Christians in a fox hole with me before I'd trust most of the blowhards I've known in Apostolic pulpits.

Sadly, I don't have a clue what Non Apostolics are in the foxhole with you? Because the ones I know would be too busy trying to convert you then fighting what is outside the hole. Unlike you, they look for likeminded on the same pageness. But I guess when you jump out of the boat you cling to anything that looks like it will float.

Originally Posted by Aquila

These Christians deserve our prayers and support. Because there isn't much preventing us from being next.

That's why the need to come into the faith, instead of enabled to lose out on something more precious than their lives. Next? Next! You were a solider? What war did you fight in? Next? Bro, to die is gain. When you are in the Word.

Please answer my previous questions concerning what you posted.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Where did Jesus or Paul speak about the Roman Catholic Church? Better yet, where can someone without a HISTORY book on ecclesiology learn this teaching?

[houston]

After reading through all that someone needs this...

[Aquila]

I believe that we are the global revival that sincere Christians in every tradition have been longing for and praying for throughout the centuries. They are not the enemy. As it relates to spreading this revival, they are our mission field.

I don't believe that every Christian who hasn't believed like us down through the ages was automatically condemned to Hell. Now, that doesn't mean that I think they had every doctrinal point correct. In all honesty, even the Apostolic movement is continuing to grow in truth and let go of unbiblical interpretations, legalisms, and traditions imposed by our well meaning forefathers.

In the New Testament church we see the foundations of Apostolic doctrine. We see the Apostles spreading the Gospel throughout the book of Acts. We also read of dire warnings that apostasy was to come and deceive many as grievous wolves would enter the flock teaching false doctrines and traditions of men. And any student of history can see this happening in several waves. We had the Judaizers, the Gnostics, and eventually the rise of Constantine's church of Rome. However, even within this apostate church there were still men and women of sincere faith and who had the Holy Spirit.

I believe that many of the Roman Catholic Saints that are venerated today were in fact Spirit filled individuals who were experiencing the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I don't believe that ever one of them had a perfect doctrinal understanding, but I do believe that their intimacy with the Lord is to be commended and should inspire us to be more intimate with the Lord in our own lives, especially since we have greater understanding than most of these precious Saints and Mystics. You'll notice, most were severely persecuted by unbelievers or even the Roman Catholic Church itself. I don't believe we can trust everything written about them. I do believe that the Roman Catholic Church has edited their writings to reflect a more "Catholic" understanding. So one must be discerning when reading or studying their works.

I believe that the Holy Spirit was convicting Martin Luther regarding the errors of the RCC as he read the Scriptures and was seeing the soft glow of God's light in a way it hadn't been seen in centuries. I don't believe that he had the fullness of truth. I do believe that he was a man of his day and continued to hold some of the misunderstandings and traditions he was taught. However, God used Martin Luther to crack open the RCC and to establish a body that was hungry for truth and was willing to search the Scriptures to find it. This was very revolutionary in their day. I do believe that Martin Luther was baptized in the Spirit. I do not believe that Martin Luther was perfect. He had sins and imperfections of his own that should be acknowledged. But I do believe that God used Martin Luther to rock the RCC world by restoring an emphasis on one's personal faith in God apart from abiding under the faith and practice of a intercessory priesthood.

I believe that John Calvin and others contributing to the Presbyterian movement saw the obvious errors regarding the Latin mass and doctrines relating to the Lord's Supper. This movement revived the understanding that the Lord was present in Spirit during the Lord's Supper not in the actual elements themselves. I think they also restored the biblical understanding of the pastor as counselor and mentor of the congregation. I believe that they were so zealous for truth in the beginning that they began wondering to the extreme with regards to predestination and election. John Calvin was also a man of his era. He wasn't perfect. However, I believe that John Calvin was so very close to a spiritual break through that God sent Michael Servetus into his life to challenge the error of the Trinity. Sadly, I believe John Calvin wasn't ready for this much truth and the end result was the persecution of non-Trinitarians and the eventual execution of Michael Servetus. It appears that later in life John Calvin regretted this sin. But I believe that this error hindered what could have been a greater leap forward in regards to restoring the Apostolic church. I do believe that John Calvin received the baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in other tongues. The volume which allegedly contains the account of Calvin’s ecstatic utterances is in the library at the Episcopal Divinity School. It is his biography by his friend and confidant, Theodore Beza, entitled De Vitam Iohannes Cauvin. This work was published after Calvin's death by Beza. It contains a small entry that appears that appears to be describing an instance of glossolalia, confided to Beza by Calvin, shortly before the Calvin's death. On several oc..casions, Calvin, in his devotions, found himself uttering a lingua non nota et cognota mini. That is, the language was not known or understood by him. Himself a skilled linguist, Calvin set about to discover the orthography of the utterance. Unable to trace it, he confided to Beza that although the language was Hebraic in character, he yet feared that he had spoken a lingua barbarorum. That is, he feared having spoken in an accursed tongue, such as what was spoken by the Canaanites. Obviously Calvin didn't fully understand what had happened to him. However, I do believe that those of us who understand the baptism of the Holy Ghost far better than they did in Calvin's time can readily identify the experience as the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Robert Brown and the Congregationalist movement added much to our understanding by reorganizing churches based on a structure more in line with the Bible. Churches became autonomous bodies that governed themselves and supported the separation of church and state. Many in this movement reported deep spiritual ecstasy and sobbing in devotional meetings. Remember, the experience we know as the "baptism of the Holy Ghost" wasn't widely understood or known as such. The Spirit moved mightily through this movement and set the stage for our understanding of church autonomy, pastoral authority, and the separation of church and state. We own much to this movement, perhaps more than we often realize.

TO BE CONTINUED...

[Aquila]

CONTINUED...

The Baptists, our precious friends the Baptists. lol These guys are so on fire for biblical truth they ran amok in many ways. However, they broke ranks with errors that were perpetuated through Lutheranism, Presbyterianism, and Congregationalism... they were used to restore the understanding of believer's baptism through emersion. Previous to this churches often baptized people as young as infants through sprinkling or effusion. This caused quite a stir. And as a result of their solidarity on this biblical truth, most churches today only baptize converts old enough to repent of sin. Many Baptists borrowed from the Presbyterians. Others were more freestyle in their approach. Many Spirit filled experiences were recorded within the early days of the movement.

That leads us to the Methodists. John Wesley, need we say more? John Wesley was a man who hungered for holiness and purity in the Christian life. He wanted to see sanctification grow into perfection. He separated from the Moravians and taught that a grounded faith in Christ would bring forth both inward and outward holiness of life. Wesley believed that one should apply the Scriptures to one's life as a method of experiencing holiness. And so this movement became known as the Methodist movement. John Wesley had a passion for modesty and much of the holiness traditions still alive today owe their form and fashion to the interpretive understanding of the Methodist movement. In addition John Wesley and the early Methodists record unintelligible prayer and weeping in their meetings wherein people fell to the floor under the power of the Holy Ghost. Yes, the Spirit was being poured out among the Methodists.

Various groups such as the Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ took things to the next level. Thomas Campbell and his son Alexander Campbell separated from the Presbyterian church and started an independent movement (thank the Congregationalists) that proclaimed that it was at the point of water baptism that the believer (thank the Baptists) fully experienced the remission of sins (thank Peter). How this worked soteriologically was often debated, but their understanding that believer's water baptism was essential to fully experiencing NT salvation is a major contribution to Christendom.

Then we have the various Trinitarian Pentecostal movements and churches. These normalized the baptism of the Holy Spirit and developed a biblical language with which to approach the subject. They encouraged all to experience this wonderful experience in God. They were often rejected by the older more traditional churches, but they remained on the cutting edge. Even making inroads into the very denominations that rejected them through the Charismatic movements found in nearly every denomination today. The restoration of this experience being normative and fully NT has led to countless millions of people receiving the Holy Spirit around the world. It is through this movement that the Christian world began to see a restoration of all the Spiritual gifts. We also saw an expansion of the role of women in the Pentecostal movement that wasn't seen in previous religious movements.

With the restoration of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who was to lead us into all truth, we come to the Apostolic movement. Those seeking greater truth received the revelation of the Oneness of God in Christ Jesus. This in turn led them to the understanding of Jesus name baptism. At first, this caught on among many denominations, especially the Pentecostal ones. It was the beginnings of a national revival. However, self appointed "heresy hunters" arose and began condemning these truths on the grounds of historic orthodoxy. As with most revival movements, the Oneness Pentecostals formed churches and fellowships of their own. The bitterness of this divide on both sides led to such a split that each side condemned the other of not being "Christian". Soon the Oneness movement was sidelined into obscurity and left largely ineffectual. To cope with this reality organizations increased in their legalisms and cut themselves off from the very world they were sent to save. However, while in this wilderness, the movement has been able to grow into a more systematic theology. And although most Oneness organizations are not well known, they have had impact in Christian music, Christian writings, and have even impacted the nation through rather notorious preachers that have become known nationally. While the legalism has held back so many Oneness organizations, many have defected to the Charismatic movement, and as a result we've seen a sharp increase of Charismatic ministers who are Oneness and who baptize in Jesus name. We're even seeing this being felt in denominational churches with charismatic wings under their organizations.

There is a pattern that is the same among all these movements. They start out well through a move of the Spirit that brings a revelation or revival of understanding... yet each movement slowed down, codified itself, and became frozen in time... rejecting the revivals that came both before and after them. And this is no different in the Apostolic movement. We're at a point wherein most Apostolic church growth is from members changing churches than from the introduction of new converts. Also increasing numbers of people are mentioning how the divine utterance is becoming less and less frequent. God's voice is becoming harder and harder to hear.

Today, there seems to be a growing uneasiness with the institutional church as a whole. Many are leaving churches of all denominations to maintain their faith. Legalism and spiritual abuse abounds throughout all denominations and organizations. Good churches are becoming harder and harder to find. This has led to the growth of movements such as the Organic Church movement, the House Church Movement, and various Grace walk movements. Only time will tell what great revival awaits.

The church is moving forward. The Reformation that was started by Martin Luther is still taking place today. We who are not Catholic are the product of that historic break.

I have to bring this to a close. In the Book of Revelation Jesus addresses the 7 churches. Each had serious doctrinal and moral failings, with the exception of the church of Philadelphia. However, in each church, there was always a remnant who were accepted. I see this as a parabolic description that describes the body of Christ as a whole. There are many denominations and organizations within Christendom. However, in each, I believe that there is a sincere remnant who have been accepted by God and in whom the Holy Spirit is present. However, I will also say that as time goes by, the sincere are leaving these institutional churches. Soon, I believe, we'll see greater faith, truth, and sincerity among those Christians in the wilderness than those in institutional churches. But we'll just have to see.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that we are the global revival that sincere Christians in every tradition have been longing for and praying for throughout the centuries. They are not the enemy. As it relates to spreading this revival, they are our mission field.

You believe you can fly? You believe you can touch the sky? Do you think about it every night and day? While only just giving your opinion you then fly away? Do you believe you can soar? That your Bible interpretations is your imagination's open door? It seems you are on the verge of breaking ground
creating your own doctrines which your dreams have found?
Lost are miracles in life you must retrieve. But you know first it must start inside of R Kelly, oh?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I have to bring this to a close. In the Book of Revelation Jesus addresses the 7 churches. Each had serious doctrinal and moral failings, with the exception of the church of Philadelphia. However, in each church, there was always a remnant who were accepted. I see this as a parabolic description that describes the body of Christ as a whole. There are many denominations and organizations within Christendom. However, in each, I believe that there is a sincere remnant who have been accepted by God and in whom the Holy Spirit is present. However, I will also say that as time goes by, the sincere are leaving these institutional churches. Soon, I believe, we'll see greater faith, truth, and sincerity among those Christians in the wilderness than those in institutional churches. But we'll just have to see.

Are you saying that the seven churches in Asia Minor all believed in different doctrines and Christ was cool with that? Where in the Bible did anyone, I mean anyone teach that we can make it up as we go along and Jesus is cool with it? What part of Not adding or taking away from don't you understand? Deuteronomy 4:2,Deuteronomy 12:32,Revelation 22:18? 1 Corinthians 1:10
Paul admonishes the Corinthians to agree together, so that there will be no divisions among them and that they would be united in mind and conviction.

Nice Ecclesiastical History lesson.

But, please, show me your theory with book, chapter, and verse.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Jason B

You don't attend church either. How convenient that all these people who can't find a church they can agree with enough to belong to, out of hundreds of thousands of churches and denominations, feel justified to condemn everyone who doesn't believe like them.....which for all practical purposes is......everyone.

He does attend church. A house church comprised of fellow believers is just as much as a church as any.

[Esaias]

JasonB's great man of God, Luther, responsible for inciting pogroms against Anabaptists for being satanic heretics.

Another of his great men of God, Calvin and all the Reformers, responsible for killing practically anyone who didn't agree with their versions of Christianity.

Let's see, Wesley, the guy who taught that if you commit sin you haven't been born again, whose followers (Methodists) are believed to be depraved heretics by the Reformed wing of Jason's great speckled vulture...

What a mess!

Aquila, blasting someone to shreds because they aren't as sweet and loving as he is?

ROFL!

No mean old apostolic ever burnt any professing Christian at the stake. Yet we see the kind of love and tolerance the Big Tent folks have for us. Just like the Big Tent folks of the glorious Reformation, they'd be in line to watch Calvin and Luther and the Puritanicals burn us all alive.

Birds of a feather, and all.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Hey Aquila!

I guess Micheal Servetus wasn't allowed in John Calvin's Fox Hole