True Jesus Church = not saved

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

Almost as if the scenario was predestined.

Predestination in an event, but not the choice one makes about the event.

Big difference.

Calvinists usually forget that their doctrine is a double edged sword.

You have people who were predestined to salvation and others predestined to damnation.

Hinduism is the mother of the Calvinistic thought, not the Bible.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I keep saying it, it is more postmodernism. All the Ethiopian eunuchs diving into oceans of water after reading Isaiah won't change a thing. Because it isn't for lack of reading the Bible. It is because of a cultural change where the Christ of the Gospel must be inclusive, instead of exclusive. The Christ which Churchanity created doesn't have a narrow way, and a strait gate. The Christ of Churchanity has a mega highway leading to a massively wide open door.

It is indeed postmodernism. Everybody has been brainwashed into thinking that recognizing distinctions is a bad thing. Unless of course the distinction is between the good postmoderns and the evil retread traditionalists.

And postmodernism is the illegitimate child of Baal. Baal was always highly inclusive: worshipped worldwide, didn't care what name you called him, or even with what rites you worshipped him. Tolerated everyone and everything.

Except those mean old exclusivist, puritanical prophets of YHVH...

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It is indeed postmodernism. Everybody has been brainwashed into thinking that recognizing distinctions is a bad thing. Unless of course the distinction is between the good postmoderns and the evil retread traditionalists.

And postmodernism is the illegitimate child of Baal. Baal was always highly inclusive: worshipped worldwide, didn't care what name you called him, or even with what rites you worshipped him. Tolerated everyone and everything.

Except those mean old exclusivist, puritanical prophets of YHVH...

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It is indeed postmodernism. Everybody has been brainwashed into thinking that recognizing distinctions is a bad thing. Unless of course the distinction is between the good postmoderns and the evil retread traditionalists.

Funny how that plays out in politics, as well. With the "good" liberals and the "evil" conservatives. Same spirit, different day.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jito463

Funny how that plays out in politics, as well. With the "good" liberals and the "evil" conservatives. Same spirit, different day.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Offering an emotional plea as doctrinal evidence never proves anything. That is merely waxing philosophically. With the hope your opponent will accept your sad story of a neophyte getting hit by a bus after he said a sinner's prayer. No, whether a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where it falls, there it will lie. The "I" believe method is also flawed, because no one cares what you or I believe. If it isn't book, chapter, and verse then our beliefs are just the white cane in our hands reflecting off of our black sunglasses as we head to the ditch.

No consistency, again another proselytizer confuses other white cane holders. Telling them out of one side of the mouth that all you need is faith alone. Then from the other side saying, if the bus misses you, and you live longer then the flat neophyte you do the rest of these items? Again, more focus on a to do list, rather than what the Bible is telling us holistically.

So, the moral of the story is stay out of the road until you bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance?

Here we have a One Stepper if you get hit by a Greyhound, Three Stepper if it misses you?

It's simple really, a sinner is justified by faith on the basis of the work of Jesus Christ, as clearly explained in depth by Paul in Romans chapters 3 through 5, along with several more affirmative statements, and literally hundreds of inferences throughout the new testament.

But you, and others, cannot see it, because you reject the plain testimony and teaching of scripture in favor of an abnormal doctrine and lifestyle (holiness code) which becomes more important that Christ himself. The conservative oneness pentecostal movement and 3 step doctrine become idols. "Apostolic identity" becomes more important than identifying with Christ.

Nor does truth and biblical exposition mean a thing to you....not if it interferes with your system. Its a blindness like the Jehovah's Witnesses, and like the Mormons. It is not outright ignorance, but worse, willful ignorance. You embrace a doctrine that just turned 100 years old. You embrace a doctrine no one ever believed prior to 1913, nay 1916 with the split over oneness. Sure ya'll call it "apostolic", so do Catholics and Mormons and Church of Christ, and Fundamental Baptists do the same. But to no avail since you plainly reject what the APOSTLE Paul clearly wrote and taught under the full inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Now as to justification by faith, its simpke, you know it, you just refuse to believe it and to interact with it as stated, always pulling the bait and switch to "easy believism" thus creating a straw man, knocking it down, and feeling vindicated to follow the "old paths" (of the 1940s) instead of that greasy grace doctrine. The whole time lying to yourself.
---------------------------------

Now then, justification by faith plainly states God justifies the repentant sinner through faith in the person and work of Jesus. At that point the sinner is declared right in God's sight, God takes his sin away, imputes it to Christ who paid the full penalty. God imputes Christ's righteousness to the sinner. At the same time (from the human point if view) God also regenerates the sinner by placing His Spirit within (regeneration=born again=new birth=born from above, whatever phrase you prefer). Now because the repentant sinner has been cleansed and God has sent His Spirit to i dwell him, the person is by default a Child of God having been not only regenerated but adopted into God's family.

Thus the repentant sinner is justified (freed from the guilt & penalty of sin), born again (through the baptism/infilling of the Holy Ghost) and adopted into God's family at that very second. And the end result of this justification is "we have PEACE with God", we are no longer enemies but "sons".

So yes, if God, in His sovereignty allows a bus to hit that person, why wouldn't we say they would die saved? Or since you hate that hypothetical, what if the person finds themselves in war, truly come to trust Christ, and die? Or in jail? Or in a deadly sickness? Or a terrorist attack? Or hanging beside Him on a cross? Hmmm.

It's really not complicated, the scripture gives theology and real life experiences, but still you blindly deny salvation of anyone who doesn't do it according to your sects teaching, words of Jesus, teachings of Paul, be gone!

Beyond this, should death not seize a justified person immediately, that person will not only be willing to be baptized, but be eager to do so. Why? Because the Spirit inside them compels them to, and they desire nothing more than to be obedient to Christ and to identify with Him....and as history shows us this is pretty much universal regardless of the cost. That is why I added the caveat that if someone doesn't want to be baptized their repentance is suspect as is their justification.....because truly justified people want to be baptized. Its simple.

Furthermore, the people who believed in justification by faith didn't deny the importance of baptism, either they held to doctrine nearing to baptismal regeration (Lutherans, Presbyterians) or went further, and despite their belief that justification was distinct from baptism, so believed in the importance of baptism that they were willing to be burnt alive, cruelly drowned, and to leave all their family and children for the sake of Christ and the gospel (Anabaptists). Yet you and your kind, feel no shame in bluntly, arrogantly, condemning these people all to hell. (I always find it rich that those who have no "skin in the game" those who not only have never been burnt alive, tortured on the rack, made to die in front of their children, beheaded, and in essentually no danger of ever having an iota of real persecution (maybe having a "transgender" use their restroom) feel so confident in damning all those who paved the way for their religious freedom to hell.
O the irony, that oneness pentecostals have the freedom to break everyone of Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 14 without having to have church in secret BECAUSE of the Reformation and its impact on society, while at the same time constantly condemning the same people who God used to bring us to that point. Perhaps yall should take a page out of the Catholic book and dig up Luther, Huss, Spurgeon, Edwards and burn their dead bodies, just to make a statement. Perhaps yall don't go to medieval lenghts physically, but verbally display the same spirit of hatred for those not of your stripe.

And all these who labored, suffered, and gave their lives for Christ are condemned why? The wrong words at baptism? They didn't stutter or stammer and claim to speak in tongues? Therefore off to the burning hell for them, millions and billions of years. Sure they trusted Christ. Sure they died to translate His Word, they suffered greatly to grant us doctrinal freedom from the corrupt Roman Catholic Church, sure we sing their hymns, and even model our church organization after them....but they're ALL lost. We're saved. We are the real apostolics. We have the truth, all who came before us were deceived and deceivers. Phonies and fakes. Thieves and robbers. But since 1913 we have recovered the real truth, everyone else missed. Yippee.

But no, you guys are slaves to your system, and in so doing cheapen the blood of Christ. The blood alone diesn't wash away sin. The death of Christ alone can't save the sinner. Trust in Christ, confession with the mouth, belief with the heart IS NOT SUFFICIENT for salvation and who gives a care what Paul wrote? If someone isn't baptized using the right words, and if someone doesn't say words that neither they nor anyone else understands, they are damned. No exceptions. Like it or lump it. Don't come around here talking about the suffiency of Christ's death, cause we'll let you know real quick, it takes more than that to be saved.

And after you get saved, don't dare trim your hair or put on a pair of pants ladies.

Some "gospel". What you believe my friends is the definition of "man made traditions" but keep on calling them the "old paths". Willful ignorance, not intellectual ignorance.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Jason B

(I always find it rich that those who have no "skin in the game" those who not only have never been burnt alive, tortured on the rack, made to die in front of their children, beheaded, and in essentually no danger of ever having an iota of real persecution (maybe having a "transgender" use their restroom)

That was a rather....odd comment to make in the middle of your diatribe. Feel some sort of affinity with trannies, do you?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Jito463

That was a rather....odd comment to make in the middle of your diatribe. Feel some sort of affinity with trannies, do you?

Right, pick that out because its more convenient than dealing with the truth.

But for further explanation, I'm simply noting what they faced for persecution and the price they paid, vs what we all face as "persecution" now.

For the record, since you seem to suggest a flaw or "affinity" within my character for "trannies" (I suppose you consider yourself more holy because you use a derogatory term? Like those who won't say homosexual, but insist on words like queers and fags, and worse use those words in the pulpit). Let the record show that I have no affinity for them save I am grieved in my spirit that they have been lied to by both satan and this world. They act unnaturally and perversely. Those who attempt to change their gender mutilate themselves heaping further confusion, emotional trauma, and stress on themselves than they ever imagined in something they expected to free and vindicate themselves. No wonder the suicide rate is so high amongst them.

They, and the whole "gay community" and this whole wicked and ungodly, immoral, adulterous, fornicating society need us, the church, the whole church, to share the gospel and love of Christ with them (not by telling them they can sleep with who they want, when they want, and identify as what they want), but by proclaiming the freedom from the bondage of sin and deliverance available through the living Savior, Jesus Christ.

But we are greatly hindered from doing that, since in fact, we are fighting amongst ourselves often times over spiritual minutia. This is not to say we shouldn't call out false teachers (Osteen, Hinn, Copeland, Rob Bell, etc) all those who will pervert the gospel and justify the sinner in their sin.....but when we split hairs between Calvinism and Arminiamism, Futurism or partial preterism, Millennialism or Amillenniallism, whether one repeats Acts 2:38 or Matthew 28:19, whether someone stammers or does not, whether they participate in foot washing or not, and whether they can wear a necklace or not, etc, etc, then I can't help but wonder if Christ is not displeased with us all.

Think about it, on this very board we have people affirming that someone MUST wash feet or they cannot be saved.

How silly is this?

Thus my point isn't just to rant about bad soteriology, but to point out flaws in hopes that oneness people will grow in truth, and have a greater impact in the world.

I believe the poster Houston said on a thread recently (maybe this one, idk) that oneness pentecostalism is the best kept secret in America. In some ways thats true. Look ya'll have a lot going for ya'll.

I love the ferverncy of prayer, the dedication to the Lord, the love ya'll have for the church and the brethren. The enthusiasm with which ya'll worship, your concern for the lost. There's a lot of things about oneness pentecostals that are good, but the bad theology ruins it. The zeal for evangelism is good but how many thousands, yea millions, have ya'll turned away due to the initial evidence doctrine, or the holiness code, or insisting dogmatically they must wash feet to be saved? You're filled with a burden for the lost....but only if they become just like ya'll. The same experience, the same look, that "apostolic identity". Its about bringing people to Christ, not to us.

[Esaias]

So the people on fire for the Lord are turning away the elect because we're caught up in what JasonB disagrees with?

Wut?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

These people take legalism to a new level.

Indeed.