Healthcare is not a right

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jito463

You don't have a right to make someone else pay for your health care.

That would make sense... if everyone wasn't already paying for the uninsured in the most expensive way possible.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jito463

You don't have a right to make someone else pay for your health care.

Let's say the uninsured go to the ER. They get billed. They can't pay the bill. The provider takes a loss. To make up for that loss, they increase the cost of healthcare. When the cost of healthcare goes up insurance companies increase premiums to pay for the rising cost in healthcare. As premiums go up...more people opt out of insurance. Now, more uninsured people end up going to the ER than last year. Providers take a loss. And the cycle repeats itself over, and over, and over until the costs are skyrocketing out of control.

Point is, your premiums are so high because you are paying for the uninsured. Only right now you're also praying fees and processing costs (this inflates the cost nearly 30%).

The only way to keep from paying for the uninsured is.... to deny services and let them suffer or die in the shadows of the ER.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Would there be a difference in your system between tax payers and non tax payers?
I do not see what difference that makes.
But to humor you:
Scenario 1
Taxpayer goes to doctor. Doctor says they need gender reassignment surgery.
Does this need to be covered?
Scenario 2
Non-Taxpayer goes to doctor. Doctor says they need gender reassignment surgery.
Does this need to be covered?

I get your question. Single Payer would cover everyone. Like Canada. My point was, if someone is a tax payer, they are more than entitled to full services.

However.... gender reassignment? I think that's an elective surgery. If a doctor said it was absolutely necessary for some medical reason, I can see it being covered. But just to become another gender to get freaky... I don't think single payer should cover that.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

A - the assumptions you make here are like others that you consistently make.
Several times, I have tried to engage in dialogue with you and when you are wrong, you simply leave the thread or ignore me.
It makes it hard for me to take you seriously.

Let's start with just one of your statements here.
"Europeans are healthier".
As I said before, I have spent several years in the healthcare field.
And I have looked at this question, before, some years ago.
When you just consider medical related issues, there was no statistical significant difference between the US and the EU.
An example of the "noise" that had to be filtered out would be auto accidents. The US drives many more miles than those in the EU, so health issues from auto accidents have to be discounted.
This is just a small example of making sure that studies are valid and making valid comparisons.

The studies I've read point to Europeans being healthier in general for several reasons, and yes, regular healthcare is one of those reasons. They randomly select 1,000 Americans and 1,000 Europeans. They focus on history of family health, exercise, diet, and routine physicals and medical procedures. They found that Europeans have healthier family histories. Mostly due to old world family occupations like farming, crafts, carpentry, working vineyards, etc. They also found that Europeans exercise more than Americans. For example, more Europeans ride bicycles as primary in-town transportation than Americans. More are also a part of various exercise/wellness plans through their employers or privately. More Europeans eat healthier Mediterranean style diets that are rich in fish, lean meats, and vegetables, with the added benefit of antioxidant rich wines as a routine part of one's diet. Europeans also eat their larger meals during the day as opposed to the evening. Europeans are more likely to have a garden and grow their own vegetables, even in cramped urban settings. Europeans have more regular physicals and checkups than Americans. Americans tend to neglect physicals unless they are a part of employment or until after they suffer a serious health issue. Due to having regular physicals, Europeans are five times more likely to discover what could become a serious health issue in its early stages than Americans are. This not only keeps the cost of care down by catching far more conditions before they are very serious and expensive to treat, but it increases the likelihood of catching a serious condition before it kills you.

One other factor that I read about is that Europeans work far less on average than Americans. Most Americans work 40 hour work weeks. In the Netherlands the average is around 27 hours a week, while in France it is 30. This contributes to Europeans having far more time to exercise, have time with family, and pursue more self-enriching endeavors that contribute to the reduction of stress and a general increase in happiness and wellbeing.

America is rather fast paced. Americans are always struggling to "find the time". Find time to exercise, find time to work on the car, find time to go to the doctor, find time for the kids, find time for spouses, find time for church, find time.... America is almost plagued with a spirit of business. This makes Americans significantly stressed. Although, we're not as bad as Japan. They nearly live at work and suicide rates are through the roof.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The studies I've read point to Europeans being healthier in general for several reasons, and yes, regular healthcare is one of those reasons. They randomly select 1,000 Americans and 1,000 Europeans. They focus on history of family health, exercise, diet, and routine physicals and medical procedures. They found that Europeans have healthier family histories. Mostly due to old world family occupations like farming, crafts, carpentry, working vineyards, etc. They also found that Europeans exercise more than Americans. For example, more Europeans ride bicycles as primary in-town transportation than Americans. More are also a part of various exercise/wellness plans through their employers or privately. More Europeans eat healthier Mediterranean style diets that are rich in fish, lean meats, and vegetables, with the added benefit of antioxidant rich wines as a routine part of one's diet. Europeans also eat their larger meals during the day as opposed to the evening. Europeans are more likely to have a garden and grow their own vegetables, even in cramped urban settings. Europeans have more regular physicals and checkups than Americans. Americans tend to neglect physicals unless they are a part of employment or until after they suffer a serious health issue. Due to having regular physicals, Europeans are five times more likely to discover what could become a serious health issue in its early stages than Americans are. This not only keeps the cost of care down by catching far more conditions before they are very serious and expensive to treat, but it increases the likelihood of catching a serious condition before it kills you.

One other factor that I read about is that Europeans work far less on average than Americans. Most Americans work 40 hour work weeks. In the Netherlands the average is around 27 hours a week, while in France it is 30. This contributes to Europeans having far more time to exercise, have time with family, and pursue more self-enriching endeavors that contribute to the reduction of stress and a general increase in happiness and wellbeing.

America is rather fast paced. Americans are always struggling to "find the time". Find time to exercise, find time to work on the car, find time to go to the doctor, find time for the kids, find time for spouses, find time for church, find time.... America is almost plagued with a spirit of business. This makes Americans significantly stressed. Although, we're not as bad as Japan. They nearly live at work and suicide rates are through the roof.

and they have castles, being able to cruise the Rhine and gaze at castles probably adds years to your life right there.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Amanah

and they have castles, being able to cruise the Rhine and gaze at castles probably adds years to your life right there.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Let's say the uninsured go to the ER. They get billed. They can't pay the bill. The provider takes a loss. To make up for that loss, they increase the cost of healthcare. When the cost of healthcare goes up insurance companies increase premiums to pay for the rising cost in healthcare. As premiums go up...more people opt out of insurance. Now, more uninsured people end up going to the ER than last year. Providers take a loss. And the cycle repeats itself over, and over, and over until the costs are skyrocketing out of control.

Point is, your premiums are so high because you are paying for the uninsured. Only right now you're also praying fees and processing costs (this inflates the cost nearly 30%).

The problem with the ER situation is not because of people who go there and then can't pay, it's because of people who abuse the system, especially illegals who use it like a free health service. If the abuse could be weeded out, that would be a start towards bringing the cost of health care down.

Originally Posted by Aquila

The only way to keep from paying for the uninsured is.... to deny services and let them suffer or die in the shadows of the ER.

Hyperbole doesn't help your argument.

[Aquila]

As a Christian, just policy that reflects our Christian values is important to me. When it comes to issues of social justice and social responsibility I like to share this Bible dictionary entry to help explain my perspective. When it comes to issues like welfare, universal health insurance, etc. we're often more influenced by what our secular political parties teach than the Bible. What does the Bible say about society's responsibility towards those in need, those who are sick, those who are disabled, the elderly, children, etc., this is the question we must ask. And what the Bible teaches comprehensively is what we must act upon, regardless of cost or an earthly political party's rhetoric. Please review this short article, allow it to resonate within your spirit, and rise to the occasion.

Holman Bible Dictionary

Justice

The order God seeks to reestablish in His creation where all people receive the benefits of life with Him. As love is for the New Testament, so justice is the central ethical idea of the Old Testament. The frequency of justice is sometimes missed by the reader due to a failure to realize that the wide range of the Hebrew word mishpat , particularly in passages that deal with the material and social necessities of life.

Nature of justice Justice has two major aspects. First, it is the standard by which penalties are assigned for breaking the obligations of the society. Second, justice is the standard by which the advantages of social life are handed out, including material goods, rights of participation, opportunities, and liberties. It is the standard for both punishment and benefits and thus can be spoken of as a plumb line. “I shall use justice as a plumb-line, and righteousness as a plummet” (Isaiah 28:17 , REB).

Often people think of justice in the Bible only in the first sense as God's wrath on evil. This aspect of justice indeed is present, such as the judgment mentioned in John 3:19 . Often more vivid words like “wrath” are used to describe punitive justice (Romans 1:18 ).

Justice in the Bible very frequently also deals with benefits. Cultures differ widely in determining the basis by which the benefits are to be justly distributed. For some it is by birth and nobility. For others the basis is might or ability or merit. Or it might simply be whatever is the law or whatever has been established by contracts. The Bible takes another possibility. Benefits are distributed according to need. Justice then is very close to love and grace. God “executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing” (Deuteronomy 10:18 , NRSV; compare Hosea 10:12 ; Isaiah 30:18 ).

Various needy groups are the recipients of justice. These groups include widows, orphans, resident aliens (also called “sojourners” or “strangers”), wage earners, the poor, and prisoners, slaves, and the sick (Job 29:12-17 ; Psalm 146:7-9 ; Malachi 3:5 ). Each of these groups has specific needs which keep its members from being able to participate in aspects of the life of their community. Even life itself might be threatened. Justice involves meeting those needs. The forces which deprive people of what is basic for community life are condemned as oppression (Micah 2:2 ; Ecclesiastes 4:1 ). To oppress is to use power for one's own advantage in depriving others of their basic rights in the community (see Mark 12:40 ). To do justice is to correct that abuse and to meet those needs (Isaiah 1:17 ). Injustice is depriving others of their basic needs or failing to correct matters when those rights are not met (Jeremiah 5:28 ; Job 29:12-17 ). Injustice is either a sin of commission or of omission.

The content of justice, the benefits which are to be distributed as basic rights in the community, can be identified by observing what is at stake in the passages in which “justice,” “righteousness,” and “judgment” occur. The needs which are met include land (Ezekiel 45:6-9 ; compare Micah 2:2 ; Micah 4:4 ) and the means to produce from the land, such as draft animals and millstones (Deuteronomy 22:1-4 ; Deuteronomy 24:6 ). These productive concerns are basic to securing other essential needs and thus avoiding dependency; thus the millstone is called the “life” of the person (Deuteronomy 24:6 ). Other needs are those essential for mere physical existence and well being: food (Deuteronomy 10:18 ; Psalm 146:7 ), clothing (Deuteronomy 24:13 ), and shelter (Psalm 68:6 ; Job 8:6 ). Job 22:5-9 ,Job 22:5-9,22:23 ; Job 24:1-12 decries the injustice of depriving people of each one of these needs, which are material and economic. The equal protection of each person in civil and judicial procedures is represented in the demand for due process ( Deuteronomy 16:18-20 ). Freedom from bondage is comparable to not being “in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and lack of everything” (Deuteronomy 28:48 NRSV).

Justice presupposes God's intention for people to be in community. When people had become poor and weak with respect to the rest of the community, they were to be strengthened so that they could continue to be effective members of the community—living with them and beside them (Leviticus 25:35-36 ). Thus biblical justice restores people to community. By justice those who lacked the power and resources to participate in significant aspects of the community were to be strengthened so that they could. This concern in Leviticus 25:1 is illustrated by the provision of the year of Jubilee, in which at the end of the fifty year period land is restored to those who had lost it through sale or foreclosure of debts ( Leviticus 25:28 ). Thus they regained economic power and were brought back into the economic community. Similarly, interest on loans was prohibited (Leviticus 25:36 ) as a process which pulled people down, endangering their position in the community.

These legal provisions express a further characteristic of justice. Justice delivers; it does not merely relieve the immediate needs of those in dire straits (Psalm 76:9 ; Isaiah 45:8 ; Isaiah 58:11 ; Isaiah 62:1-2 ). Helping the needy means setting them back on their feet, giving a home, leading to prosperity, restoration, ending the oppression (Psalm 68:5-10 ; Psalm 10:15-16 ; compare 107; Psalm 113:7-9 ). Such thorough justice can be socially disruptive. In the Jubilee year as some receive back lands, others lose recently-acquired additional land. The advantage to some is a disadvantage to others. In some cases the two aspects of justice come together. In the act of restoration, those who were victims of justice receive benefits while their exploiters are punished (1 Samuel 2:7-10 ; compare Luke 1:51-53 ; Luke 6:20-26 ).

The source of justice As the sovereign Creator of the universe, God is just (Psalm 99:1-4 ; Genesis 18:25 ; Deuteronomy 32:4 ; Jeremiah 9:24 ), particularly as the defender of all the oppressed of the earth (Psalm 76:9 ; Psalm 103:6 ; Jeremiah 49:11 ). Justice thus is universal (Psalm 9:7-9 ) and applies to each covenant or dispensation. Jesus affirmed for His day the centrality of the Old Testament demand for justice (Matthew 23:23 ). Justice is the work of the New Testament people of God (James 1:27 ).

God's justice is not a distant external standard. It is the source of all human justice (Proverbs 29:26 ; 2Chronicles 19:6,2 Chronicles 19:9 ). Justice is grace received and grace shared (2 Corinthians 9:8-10 ).

The most prominent human agent of justice is the ruler. The king receives God's justice and is a channel for it (Psalm 72:1 ; compare Romans 13:1-2 ,Romans 13:1-2,13:4 ). There is not a distinction between a personal, voluntary justice and a legal, public justice. The same caring for the needy groups of the society is demanded of the ruler (Psalm 72:4 ; Ezekiel 34:4 ; Jeremiah 22:15-16 ). Such justice was also required of pagan rulers (Daniel 4:27 ; Proverbs 31:8-9 ).

Justice is also a central demand on all people who bear the name of God. Its claim is so basic that without it other central demands and provisions of God are not acceptable to God. Justice is required to be present with the sacrificial system (Amos 5:21-24 ; Micah 6:6-8 ; Isaiah 1:11-17 ; Matthew 5:23-24 ), fasting (Isaiah 58:1-10 ), tithing (Matthew 23:23 ), obedience to the other commandments (Matthew 19:16-21 ), or the presence of the Temple of God (Jeremiah 7:1-7 ).

Justice in salvation Apart from describing God's condemnation of sin, Paul used the language and meaning of justice to speak of personal salvation. “The righteousness of God” represents God in grace bringing into the community of God through faith in Christ those who had been outside of the people of God (particularly in Romans but compare also Ephesians 2:12-13 ). See Law; Government ; Poverty ; Righteousness ; Welfare.

Stephen Charles Mott

In America, most "Christians" are more conservative than "Christian".

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

and they have castles, being able to cruise the Rhine and gaze at castles probably adds years to your life right there.

It is beautiful no doubt. But a lot can be said for actually taking in the beauty of life and creation. It is often a healing balm for the weary soul.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jito463

The problem with the ER situation is not because of people who go there and then can't pay, it's because of people who abuse the system, especially illegals who use it like a free health service. If the abuse could be weeded out, that would be a start towards bringing the cost of health care down.

Gotta find someone to blame. It isn't just illegals. Think about it. You have thousands of hospitals, much like those that we have in Ohio, who treat the uninsured every day. Just going to the ER, being seen, being admitted, being treated, being evaluated, having medications prescribed, or a specialist suggested, and then released can cost thousands of dollars. Most who are uninsured are uninsured because they lack adequate employment. This means, they are either slow in paying their medical bills... or they don't pay them at all. While I'm sure that illegals are included in these numbers, they are vastly outnumbered by your average uninsured American.

Hyperbole doesn't help your argument.

It wasn't hyperbole. It's an economic fact. The only way to keep the costs from skyrocketing out of control is to deny treatment to those who are uninsured or who cannot pay cold hard cash. Or... have as close to everyone as possible pay into the system to keep it solvent.

Think about if car dealerships worked like our medical system. A person's car breaks down. So the rush to the Car ER. The Car ER gives them a brand new car, no questions asked, and decides to bill them. They don't pay the bill. A dozen or so do this a day. The dealership is taking quite a loss. What do you think that will do to the price of automobiles on that lot? They will go up to cover the loss. The only way to stay in business would be... STOP GIVING CARS AWAY.