Bringing Protest & Disruption To Church:

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Honestly, the Democrats are far closer to what the Republicans were in the 1980's. The modern Republican Party has moved radically to the right in many areas.

Tell me more about how the republican party of the 80's wanted to tear down the foundation of civil society, kill children even up to the moment they are going to be delivered, apologize for America, dictate to all that they can't buy a coke bigger than 16oz, try to manage every facet of our lives including our conscious, and a thousand other things we see dems pushing for. Perhaps i missed something (like a whole decade).

Originally Posted by Aquila

Might we be seeing a grassroots desire to make right-wing pastors more accountable for what they say and teach and how it effects social policy?

No.

We may see that, if we do, it won't be grass roots, it will be political activists who are enemies of the gospel, enemies of truth, and enemies of Jesus Christ himself. Or to keep it simple and just use the language of Romans 5, the enemies of God.

If we see a grass roots movement of any kind, it will tend to encourage the unfettered preaching of God's Word and result in revival, not concern over "social policy" and if a boy can say he feels like a girl to walk into the wrong bathroom.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The only issues Progressive Christians appear to be weak on is abortion and gay marriage. Here, they see the issue of abortion as a deeply personal issue relating to health and the sovereignty of a woman's body. They feel it best to leave the decision as to abort or not to abort better left in the hands of individual women. As for gay marriage, they see the need for absolute civil equality, feeling that liberty is holy.... even if men and women choose sin over righteousness.

I've always felt that the Left is therefore 80% Christian while the right is 20% Christian. However, the right is just louder about the remaining 20% of their Christian convictions than the left is regarding the 80% of their Christian convictions.

Sadly, I feel that conservative Christianity has painted itself into a proverbial corner wherein they'd vote for the most radial fascist, if he professed to be pro-life and anti-gay.

A little weak? I guess the Moabites were just a little weak worshipping Chemosh when Phineas rose up. The Ammonites were a little weak on infanticide when worshipping Molech. The Israelites were just a little weak when they worshipped Baal.

They condone and bless what God hates and has pronounced as wicked and detestable perversion.

Who is doing all the homosexual marriages? Who is ordaining lesbians and gay men to preach? Who is saying that muslims are saved, Buddhists are saved, indeed everyone is saved, but liberal "Christians"? Who in your opinion are really about 80% Christian?

This is so ridiculous I have to stop.

Good luck with all that nonsense. Go save the world. I'm just not sure what exactly they need to be saved from.....



Maybe bad healthcare.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Politically progressive and moderate Christians are starting to consider bringing protest, publicity, and disruption to right-wing churches.

Take the Politics of Disruption to Church
https://sojo.net/articles/take-polit...ruption-church

Excerpts:

By now, most of us have learned that 81 percent of white evangelicals who cast their vote did so for Trump. And the same is true of 60 percent of the white Catholics who voted. And, lest mainliners feel off the hook, 58 percent of Protestants, in general, voted for Trump. It is easy to see the ways in which current social injustices reflect the commitments of conservative white Christianity.

However, this isn’t another effort in the continuing criticism of conservative Christianity; we need to challenge progressive Christianity.

And...

If we want to confound and disrupt the narratives of oppression, we need to raise our angry voices in the pews as well as the streets.

I literally mean we should disrupt our churches. Just as Black Lives Matter has employed a politics of disruption to raise the national alarm about racist policing. Just as the water protectors at Standing Rock have created a human barrier against pipeline construction. So too, should we disrupt and confound any and every congregation that fuels militarism, economic exploitation, sexism, racism, Islamophobia, or transphobia.

While such an approach is uncomfortable and risky, it is hardly novel. We worship a man who marched into the Temple during its most busy week, disrupted its market place, and proceeded to occupy it for a week while telling stories that overtly undermined the authority of the priests and scribes and exposes their complicity with Rome.

Jesus was so offensive that “the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people kept looking for a way to kill him.” Jesus, like all the prophets before him, disrupted the injustices of their day by going to the center of myth making. They went to the Temple, the palaces, and the places of sacred meaning. And with bold words and deeds, they disrupted.

And it was, I believe, effective. Conventional wisdom tells us that interstate shut downs or Temple disruptions only “hurt the message.” But Paul Engler, director for the Center for Working Poor in Los Angeles, suggests that divisive tactics like those employed by Black Lives Matter and other groups force people to form an opinion about issues even if they disapproved of the tactics being used. He and his brother Mark write, in their book This Is an Uprising: How Nonviolent Revolt Is Shaping the Twenty-First Century:

"Time and again, patterns of polarization appear in democratic movements in the United States and abroad. Looking back from the safe removal of history, it can be easy to imagine that landmark social and political causes of the past--whether they involved ending slavery, securing the franchise for women, or establishing standards of workplace safety--were popular and widely celebrated. But the truth is that, in their time, these issues generated tremendous controversy. In promoting them, activists had to make the difficult decision to invite division and acrimony before they achieved their most impressive results." [Source: This is an Uprising, page 208]

We need to do likewise — even if it offends our sensibilities and challenges our desires for unity. It isn't enough to simply offer an alternative Christianity; we must disrupt the way a distorted gospel fuels imperialism.

It is time that we don the prophetic mantle within our churches and engage tactics of disruption so that Christians no longer feel comfortable going about business as usual. So that the vast and moderate middle is forced to contend with the issues and no longer remain complicit with the ways that Christianity has been used to justify oppression.

The strong delusion that has caused so many to align themselves with Donald Trump (in spite of his glaring fascism and hypocrisy) is fueling a movement that is preparing to confront right-wing Christianity.

Has the radical "conservatism" in our churches gone too far to the right?

Why is it that every time you post something related to politics, you seem to become more and more unhinged? I worry about you, truly.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Tell me more about how the republican party of the 80's wanted to tear down the foundation of civil society, kill children even up to the moment they are going to be delivered, apologize for America, dictate to all that they can't buy a coke bigger than 16oz, try to manage every facet of our lives including our conscious, and a thousand other things we see dems pushing for. Perhaps i missed something (like a whole decade).

. . .

If we see a grass roots movement of any kind, it will tend to encourage the unfettered preaching of God's Word and result in revival, not concern over "social policy" and if a boy can say he feels like a girl to walk into the wrong bathroom.

Amen brother

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

A - as usual, I disagree vigorously.
And as usual, I do not have the time for a point by point reply.
Just let me say, that the Bible asks us for our response to these social issues.
It did not mention that we are responsible for asking the state to take others money and use it to help those in need.
It asks us to make a sacrifice of our own time and money.
The left does not want to spend their own time and money, just others.
It is easy to be generous with other people's money.

Please read this Bible dictionary entry and share your thoughts:

Holman Bible Dictionary

Justice

The order God seeks to reestablish in His creation where all people receive the benefits of life with Him. As love is for the New Testament, so justice is the central ethical idea of the Old Testament. The frequency of justice is sometimes missed by the reader due to a failure to realize that the wide range of the Hebrew word mishpat , particularly in passages that deal with the material and social necessities of life.

Nature of justice Justice has two major aspects. First, it is the standard by which penalties are assigned for breaking the obligations of the society. Second, justice is the standard by which the advantages of social life are handed out, including material goods, rights of participation, opportunities, and liberties. It is the standard for both punishment and benefits and thus can be spoken of as a plumb line. “I shall use justice as a plumb-line, and righteousness as a plummet” (Isaiah 28:17 , REB).

Often people think of justice in the Bible only in the first sense as God's wrath on evil. This aspect of justice indeed is present, such as the judgment mentioned in John 3:19 . Often more vivid words like “wrath” are used to describe punitive justice (Romans 1:18 ).

Justice in the Bible very frequently also deals with benefits. Cultures differ widely in determining the basis by which the benefits are to be justly distributed. For some it is by birth and nobility. For others the basis is might or ability or merit. Or it might simply be whatever is the law or whatever has been established by contracts. The Bible takes another possibility. Benefits are distributed according to need. Justice then is very close to love and grace. God “executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing” (Deuteronomy 10:18 , NRSV; compare Hosea 10:12 ; Isaiah 30:18 ).

Various needy groups are the recipients of justice. These groups include widows, orphans, resident aliens (also called “sojourners” or “strangers”), wage earners, the poor, and prisoners, slaves, and the sick (Job 29:12-17 ; Psalm 146:7-9 ; Malachi 3:5 ). Each of these groups has specific needs which keep its members from being able to participate in aspects of the life of their community. Even life itself might be threatened. Justice involves meeting those needs. The forces which deprive people of what is basic for community life are condemned as oppression (Micah 2:2 ; Ecclesiastes 4:1 ). To oppress is to use power for one's own advantage in depriving others of their basic rights in the community (see Mark 12:40 ). To do justice is to correct that abuse and to meet those needs (Isaiah 1:17 ). Injustice is depriving others of their basic needs or failing to correct matters when those rights are not met (Jeremiah 5:28 ; Job 29:12-17 ). Injustice is either a sin of commission or of omission.

The content of justice, the benefits which are to be distributed as basic rights in the community, can be identified by observing what is at stake in the passages in which “justice,” “righteousness,” and “judgment” occur. The needs which are met include land (Ezekiel 45:6-9 ; compare Micah 2:2 ; Micah 4:4 ) and the means to produce from the land, such as draft animals and millstones (Deuteronomy 22:1-4 ; Deuteronomy 24:6 ). These productive concerns are basic to securing other essential needs and thus avoiding dependency; thus the millstone is called the “life” of the person (Deuteronomy 24:6 ). Other needs are those essential for mere physical existence and well being: food (Deuteronomy 10:18 ; Psalm 146:7 ), clothing (Deuteronomy 24:13 ), and shelter (Psalm 68:6 ; Job 8:6 ). Job 22:5-9 ,Job 22:5-9,22:23 ; Job 24:1-12 decries the injustice of depriving people of each one of these needs, which are material and economic. The equal protection of each person in civil and judicial procedures is represented in the demand for due process ( Deuteronomy 16:18-20 ). Freedom from bondage is comparable to not being “in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and lack of everything” (Deuteronomy 28:48 NRSV).

Justice presupposes God's intention for people to be in community. When people had become poor and weak with respect to the rest of the community, they were to be strengthened so that they could continue to be effective members of the community—living with them and beside them (Leviticus 25:35-36 ). Thus biblical justice restores people to community. By justice those who lacked the power and resources to participate in significant aspects of the community were to be strengthened so that they could. This concern in Leviticus 25:1 is illustrated by the provision of the year of Jubilee, in which at the end of the fifty year period land is restored to those who had lost it through sale or foreclosure of debts ( Leviticus 25:28 ). Thus they regained economic power and were brought back into the economic community. Similarly, interest on loans was prohibited (Leviticus 25:36 ) as a process which pulled people down, endangering their position in the community.

These legal provisions express a further characteristic of justice. Justice delivers; it does not merely relieve the immediate needs of those in dire straits (Psalm 76:9 ; Isaiah 45:8 ; Isaiah 58:11 ; Isaiah 62:1-2 ). Helping the needy means setting them back on their feet, giving a home, leading to prosperity, restoration, ending the oppression (Psalm 68:5-10 ; Psalm 10:15-16 ; compare 107; Psalm 113:7-9 ). Such thorough justice can be socially disruptive. In the Jubilee year as some receive back lands, others lose recently-acquired additional land. The advantage to some is a disadvantage to others. In some cases the two aspects of justice come together. In the act of restoration, those who were victims of justice receive benefits while their exploiters are punished (1 Samuel 2:7-10 ; compare Luke 1:51-53 ; Luke 6:20-26 ).

The source of justice As the sovereign Creator of the universe, God is just (Psalm 99:1-4 ; Genesis 18:25 ; Deuteronomy 32:4 ; Jeremiah 9:24 ), particularly as the defender of all the oppressed of the earth (Psalm 76:9 ; Psalm 103:6 ; Jeremiah 49:11 ). Justice thus is universal (Psalm 9:7-9 ) and applies to each covenant or dispensation. Jesus affirmed for His day the centrality of the Old Testament demand for justice (Matthew 23:23 ). Justice is the work of the New Testament people of God (James 1:27 ).

God's justice is not a distant external standard. It is the source of all human justice (Proverbs 29:26 ; 2Chronicles 19:6,2 Chronicles 19:9 ). Justice is grace received and grace shared (2 Corinthians 9:8-10 ).

The most prominent human agent of justice is the ruler. The king receives God's justice and is a channel for it (Psalm 72:1 ; compare Romans 13:1-2 ,Romans 13:1-2,13:4 ). There is not a distinction between a personal, voluntary justice and a legal, public justice. The same caring for the needy groups of the society is demanded of the ruler (Psalm 72:4 ; Ezekiel 34:4 ; Jeremiah 22:15-16 ). Such justice was also required of pagan rulers (Daniel 4:27 ; Proverbs 31:8-9 ).

Justice is also a central demand on all people who bear the name of God. Its claim is so basic that without it other central demands and provisions of God are not acceptable to God. Justice is required to be present with the sacrificial system (Amos 5:21-24 ; Micah 6:6-8 ; Isaiah 1:11-17 ; Matthew 5:23-24 ), fasting (Isaiah 58:1-10 ), tithing (Matthew 23:23 ), obedience to the other commandments (Matthew 19:16-21 ), or the presence of the Temple of God (Jeremiah 7:1-7 ).

Justice in salvation Apart from describing God's condemnation of sin, Paul used the language and meaning of justice to speak of personal salvation. “The righteousness of God” represents God in grace bringing into the community of God through faith in Christ those who had been outside of the people of God (particularly in Romans but compare also Ephesians 2:12-13 ). See Law; Government ; Poverty ; Righteousness ; Welfare.

Stephen Charles Mott

Your position is the conservative distortion of reality. As a Christian moderate who is quite liberal, I assure you that there are many Christians who disagree with your narrow interpretation.

What would have happened if Christians were silent throughout history regarding religious liberty, slavery, women's suffrage, child labor, equality under the law? The Christian sense of social justice shaped the entire Western world. Notice, conservatism has neutralized modern Christianity to only focusing upon gay marriage and abortion. And sadly, it's only focused on advocating their prohibition, not necessarily addressing the deeper issues that lead to these problems.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How many are you willing to kill and see die to enforce your convictions on the rest of us Dirt People?

Haven't you realized that the Republicans aren't going to lower your taxes? Oh, they will cut off all the "social entitlements" and government offices of regulation. But all that money will simply be redirected to corporate subsidies and issues of corporate interest.

Would you rather your tax dollars go to social programs that help the poor and uninsured.... or to help increase some corporate profit margin that pads the pockets of the ultra wealthy?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

A - you seem to have twisted FG's word's. Here they are in context:

(Russian Journalist) - "I heard that you called Barack Obama ‘the leader of the antichrist movement.’ Is that true? What do you think about the current president of the United States?"

FG - "I have met the president on several occasions. He’s a very nice person. But he supports and promotes policies that contradict the teachings of God. As a Christian I believe that abortion is murder, he supports it. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage — those are sins against God, and the president is promoting them. I’m not against homosexuals as people. But God commanded that marriage should be between a man and a woman. And I very much appreciate that President Putin is protecting Russian young people against homosexual propaganda. If only to give them the opportunity to grow up and make a decision for themselves. Again, homosexuals cannot have children, they can take other people’s children. I believe that President Obama (and I’ll repeat, he’s a very nice person) is leading America down the wrong road. He’s taking a stand against God."

If you can't see the problem with FG's statement.... you're not paying attention. What if he had said this....?

"I have met the president on several occasions. He’s a very nice person. But he supports and promotes policies that contradict the teachings of God. As a Christian I believe that abortion is murder, he supports it. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage — those are sins against God, and the president is promoting them. I’m not against homosexuals as people. But God commanded that marriage should be between a man and a woman. And I very much appreciate that Chancellor Hitler is protecting German young people against homosexual propaganda. If only to give them the opportunity to grow up and make a decision for themselves. Again, homosexuals cannot have children, they can take other people’s children. I believe that President Obama (and I’ll repeat, he’s a very nice person) is leading America down the wrong road. He’s taking a stand against God."

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Okay.... that is funny. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Yeah that will be pretty effective....if a Jew reads that sign it in the land Israel.

You miss the implication. The nation of Israel is the only earthly nation God ever directly guided with regards to civil, social, and ceremonial law. And so Leviticus 19:34 illustrates God's own opinion on the matter.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Interesting when the left all of a sudden determines to take the Law of Moses literally and make it applicable for us today. Hmm.

Sadly, not the entire Left. However, Christians that are on the Left typically identify with the Left because it is in 80% agreement with God's social ethics as revealed in the Law (Israel being our example). Whereas the right only agrees with God's own social ethic only 20% of the time, if that.

As Christian Democrat, I can honestly say that the only two issues wherein my party doesn't agree with God's social ethic as revealed to Israel is with regards to gay marriage and abortion. However, if I began to consider where the Republican Party doesn't agree with God's social ethic.... we're in for a very long list.

Did you know that if you examined the entire economic system of ancient Israel, it's system would classify as a form of agrarian socialism?