You'd Be Proud - Page 4

Pressing-On · #31 10-17-2016, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

It has been preached before that before actual NEW BIRTH, there is life since conception took place. A law in the old testament stated an unborn baby's death demands the death of the perpetrator if a pregnant woman is hurt in a brawl between two men, because it's an eye for an eye. So, NEW BIRTH is thought to work the same way, and someone is saved before they're born again in the Acts 2:38 experience, as though repentance is when Acts 2:38 starts like life starts.

That's right. I had forgotten that's how the teaching began to be used.

Sherri · #32 10-17-2016, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Sorry to be nitpicky here (lol), but are you saying a person is saved at Repentance? How is that possible when Mark 16:16 says that if you don't believe AND are baptized, you will be damned?

Read it again - it says if you don't believe, you will be damned.

When Jesus compared being Born Again to the natural birth, you either believe life starts at conception or you don't. If you don't believe that in the natural, then we are all in trouble with the abortion thing. If you do believe that, then life also happens spiritually at conception.
Now that baby will go ahead and follow through the water and then the breath of life, but he's already ALIVE in Christ.

He was once DEAD in his sins, but he is made ALIVE when he repents and turns toward the Lord. At that time, he leaves Satan's Kingdom.

good samaritan · #33 10-17-2016, 10:51 PM

I like the parable about the sower. He sowed the seed (word of God) in different types of ground. Some of the ground was good and some of it was bad. The good ground had life to spring forth out of it and it became fruitful. John told those at the Jordan River bring forth fruits meet for repentance (baptism). Baptism is a fruit of repentance. If we are good ground will bring fruit. If we are good ground we will fulfill all righteousness.

Quote:

Mark 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon:and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. 14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.

Jesus cursed the fig tree for not having any fruit on it. Many today believe in a fruitless Christianity. I think we spend too much time dissecting things. I personally believe that if a person is good ground they will receive the Holy Ghost.

Quote:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If someone truly puts their faith in Christ, repents of their sins, and is baptized in Jesus name they shall receive the Holy Ghost. We sometimes make people feel like they have to get the Holy Ghost when in reality they will receive it, but we must show them the way to get there. Faith, repentance, and baptism is the recipe. If someone doesn't receive the Holy Ghost after these then we have a problem with the truth of God's written word.

Salvation doesn't take place at faith, salvation doesn't take place at baptism, nor does salvation take place at Spirit baptism. Salvation takes place when we here him say well done. All these things and many more are a necessary part of the journey, but we must all seek to have fruit on the vine when he comes.

PS I agree with saying one is saved after being born again of water and the Spirit because we are in a saved condition. Although, we are never actually saved until we get there.

Esaias · #34 10-17-2016, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherri

Conception (Repentance) - Life happens at Conception (Salvation)
The Baby cannot stay there though - he needs to go through the water (Baptism). Then comes the Breath of Life ("pneuma") and Language - (Holy Spirit baptism). However, life was there as soon as repentance and confession happened. There are just more steps that come afterwards.

That how a person is born of the Water (natural birth) and of the Spirit (spiritual birth).

Sorry, but this is seriously flawed doctrine, it doesn't even make sense within it's own paradigm.

First, if what you say is true, that 'born of water' = natural birth, then you have just consigned every miscarriage and every aborted baby to oblivion or worse. You have made actual natural birth a requirement for entering the kingdom of God. C-sections need not apply, I guess?

Second, you have conflated 'life at conception' with 'salvation' and 'birth' into a horrible mish-mash of nonsense.

Let's assume that 'life begins at conception' = salvation = faith and repentance. The problem is, conception is not birth. And Jesus did not say you must be conceived, but born. Conception comes before birth, and therefore conception is not birth. So whatever conception represents, it does not represent whatever birth represents. And it is birth that Jesus identified as the requirement for entering the kingdom of God.

Third, when a baby is born, they die if they do not BREATHE. So, if you have Holy Ghost baptism and tongues as being represented by the breathing (and crying?) of a newborn, then the analogy follows that a 'believer' who does not receive the Holy Ghost and speak in tongues is suffocating and will certainly and most assuredly without any doubt whatsoever BE DEAD. Call the undertaker.

So in effect, you teach that any believer who leaves this world without speaking in tongues will not enter the kingdom of God, and yet you seem to object to those who teach that receiving the Holy Ghost is a requirement of entering the kingdom of God. Trying to play both sides of the aisle?

Esaias · #35 10-18-2016, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If someone truly puts their faith in Christ, repents of their sins, and is baptized in Jesus name they shall receive the Holy Ghost. We sometimes make people feel like they have to get the Holy Ghost when in reality they will receive it, but we must show them the way to get there. Faith, repentance, and baptism is the recipe. If someone doesn't receive the Holy Ghost after these then we have a problem with the truth of God's written word.

Do you think the problem may not be so much with the truth of God's word, but perhaps with the individual's faith? I think a lot of people get the mistaken idea that faith is some kind of 'will power' or force they have to work up. So when they pray to receive the Spirit they literally try to 'make themselves receive the Holy Ghost.' Or else they have a strong hunger and desire, but do not quite understand how faith works, so they wind up begging and pleading. But God is not moved by begging and pleading, but by faith. So maybe a lot of folks have a long time between their baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost because they have some faith issues that God needs to work out with them?

thephnxman · #36 10-18-2016, 12:47 AM

Than you, Brother Isaias.

"He that believes..." (repents) "...and is baptized..." (whose sins are remitted)
"...SHALL..." (the promise) "...be saved." (receive the Holy Spirit, which puts the
believer under "grace") (Mk. 16:16)

thephnxman · #37 10-18-2016, 02:40 AM

"...except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God."
If man does not receive the revelation (POWER) from God, he will
never be able to SEE (perceive, discern, understand) God's kingdom.
God has given us the power to "see", that we may then be able to
"...CHOOSE LIFE that both you and your seed may live." But, we are
not saved by only seeing the kingdom, just as the Israelites were not
saved solely by looking upon the Promise Land without entering in and
conquering it!

"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by
the WORD OF GOD, which lives and abides for ever."
That seed, of course, is the WORD OF GOD: it gives every man the power to
choose His righteousness, or walk away from it. And that is how "...faith
comes by hearing..." A man hears the Word, and it causes him to either
believe or refrain from believing. Faith alone does not "save" us, but faith
leads us to repentance and, eventually, to grace.

"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot ENTER..."
Understand this: most men today are under mercy, and "...mercy rejoices
against judgment." So then under mercy man can never receive God's
righteous judgment; rather, [mercy] is given to withhold the judgment that
His righteousness demands! Even under the Law, when the sacrificial lamb
did withhold God's judgment for another year...or until another sacrifice...
there remained in them a remembrance of sin. But being born of the Spirit
(in the Spirit, if you will), there is no more remembrance of sin: but we have
an "...entering INTO the kingdom of God."

mfblume · #38 10-18-2016, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherri

Read it again - it says if you don't believe, you will be damned.

When Jesus compared being Born Again to the natural birth, you either believe life starts at conception or you don't. If you don't believe that in the natural, then we are all in trouble with the abortion thing. If you do believe that, then life also happens spiritually at conception.
Now that baby will go ahead and follow through the water and then the breath of life, but he's already ALIVE in Christ.

He was once DEAD in his sins, but he is made ALIVE when he repents and turns toward the Lord. At that time, he leaves Satan's Kingdom.

If you don't believe you certainly won't get baptized. It has to be read altogether.

Esaias · #39 10-18-2016, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

If you don't believe you certainly won't get baptized. It has to be read altogether.

"He that believes this advertisement and shows up Sunday at noon to the car lot will get a new car for free. He that doesn't believe it will be stuck with what they already have."

Those who don't bother showing up obviously didn't believe the advertisement, or at least didn't want the new, free car.

good samaritan · #40 10-18-2016, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Do you think the problem may not be so much with the truth of God's word, but perhaps with the individual's faith? I think a lot of people get the mistaken idea that faith is some kind of 'will power' or force they have to work up. So when they pray to receive the Spirit they literally try to 'make themselves receive the Holy Ghost.' Or else they have a strong hunger and desire, but do not quite understand how faith works, so they wind up begging and pleading. But God is not moved by begging and pleading, but by faith. So maybe a lot of folks have a long time between their baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost because they have some faith issues that God needs to work out with them?

Agreed. I was not meaning to suggest that God's Word was in error. I was explaining that we focus on the working of God when we should be focus on the work we are to do (faith, repentance=lifestyle change, baptism). The Holy Ghost is God's part of the equation. Of course people should desire the gift of the Holy Ghost, but sometimes we must remember it is a promise to us. If our faith is right we will continue in baptism and repentance. God will do his part if we have truly done ours.