Not so fast, Charnock. You make some assumptions that can't be left unaddressed.
in the debate section of the forum I have a six part video series that explains SALVATION. And it goes into the details of what I will say below. I challenge anyone to check that series out and show me my flaw of how the bible teaches
Acts 2:38 salvation.
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=48098
I am writing a book on salvation right now. These words that follow are included in it.
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Originally Posted by Charnock
The responses to this kid's questions have been horrible.
Hey, kid, let me help you out.
In Acts 2, a bit before the Oneness Pentecostal candy stick of verse 38, Peter said something very significant. It's in verse 21.
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." |
That is a quoted from
Joel 2.
Joe 2:32 KJV And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
That's right there with the words in Joel about pouring out the Spirit.
And after Peter mentioned that, he proceeded to teach the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection.
Now, if calling on the name of the Lord was all there was to it, when the listeners asked Peter, "Men and brethren what shall we do?" Peter would have responded with the easy believism you are espousing, and said, "What do you mean, 'What shall we do?' I just told you! Call on the name of the Lord and be saved! there's nothing more to it!"
But that's not what Peter said. And more importantly, the listeners who heard Peter speak about calling on the name of the Lord to be saved KNEW BETTER themselves. That's why they asked Peter what to do!
It's the same scenario in
Acts 10 when Cornelius was told by an angel to cal for Peter WHO WOULD TELL HIM WHAT TO DO.
Cornelius prayed all the time, and gave alms with his whole house. But the angel said Peter would tell him what to do. And amongst the things Peter told him, in fact commanded him, was baptism in Jesus' name.
Not only that, but Peter informed the listeners in
Acts 2 WHAT TO DO, and it was associated with CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. Baptism in Jesus' name is HOW YOU CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. Proof:
Act 22:16 KJV And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
So, none of this merely calling n the name of the Lord as you espouse it is what is meant whatsoever.
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Now the good folks on this forum will tell you that those martyrs lost their heads for nothing, but this passage clearly states something different. Keep in mind that it's part of the sermon Peter preached at Pentecost.
Later, AFTER PENTECOST, in Romans 10:13, the Apostle Paul wrote the same thing. From the KJV..." For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
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And like I just proved, calling on the name of the Lord is in baptism in the context Peter referred. That is why Peter told them to do so after having quoted
Joel 2.
And
Romans 10 is not saying to speak Jesus' name in a simple prayer as though that saves you. Keep reading...
Rom 10:13-14 KJV For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
You have to believe in order to call on His name. And as Paul extrapolated backwards from that point, he continued to show that each element he mentioned is not possible without the next element he lists.
Notice the sequence:
You cannot call if you haven't believed.
And you cannot believe unless you hear.
You cannot hear without a preacher.
Rom 10:15 KJV And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
The preachers cannot preach unless they've been sent (HINT HINT: APOSTLES mean SENT ONES).
So, it all goes back to the apostles. So the apostles explained HOW TO CALL ON THE NAME AND BELIEVE. It's associated with baptism. Even Jesus associated FAITH/belief with baptism, when he said He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved.
You guys never go to the WHOLE counsel of the bible to deal with these things. You take things out of context.
Romans 10, by the way, is dealing with Jews and the question of their salvation,
not laying out a plan of salvation. Paul quoted
Deuteronomy 30 when he dealt with the issue. in
Deut 30 we read God would gather Israel when they obeyed a particular commandment. Paul called if the WORD. Moses said that commandment was not far form them as though they had to ascend into heaven or cross the sea. He said it's as close as being in their mouths and hearts. THAT IS WHY PAUL SAID confess with the mouth and believe with the heart. That is all that Moses said in
Deut 30.
Now any serious student of the word knows the Gospel is not plainly presented in the Old Testament, but HIDDEN. Only when we know the NEW Testament can we see the gospel in the OLD. So, if all there was to it was believing in our heart and confessing in our mouths, that's already in the
Deut 30! But the ONLY REASON Paul used those terms was to show JESUS was foretold in
Deut 30. TO JESUS SHALL THE GATHERING OF THE PEOPLE BE (
Gen 49:10)! And after Paul said they had to believe and confess, he ensured they realized it had to be the way the APOSTLES EXPLAINED IT. And
Acts 22:16 shows us how that was accomplished.
So, you just can't say, confess with your mouth and believe with your heart. The CONTEXT
says the sent ones had to explain the manner of how to believe.
Notice that Paul asked how people can believe except they have a sent preacher? Apostle? That goes along with what Jesus said:
Joh 17:20 KJV Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
People would believe on Jesus THROUGH THE APOSTLES' WORD. Jesus put the seal of approval on all the apostles would teach, right there. We believe in the way THE APOSTLES SAID. We call on the name of the Lord in the way the APOSTLES SAID. And
Acts 22:16 shows us how to call on the name IN BAPTISM.
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Earlier in this thread someone talked about the importance of the New Birth, and how the martyrs couldn't be saved because they hadn't "obeyed" the new birth message.
I assume they meant that the martyrs hadn't been baptized properly or spoken in tongues, which are most definitely NOT a part of the New Birth message Jesus gave to Nicodemus in John 3.
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Jesus never clearly laid out the salvation plan in
John 3 nor ANYWHERE IN HIS ENTIRE MINISTRY before the cross. Just before Jesus left the world 40 days after his resurrection, He told them to preach salvation in a way HE HIMSELF NEVER BEFORE PREACHED IT.
Luk 24:47-49 KJV And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (48) And ye are witnesses of these things. (49) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
BEGIN this message at JERUSALEM. That means no body preached it yet. Not even Jesus! The apostles would BEGIN in Jerusalem. And that was instructed to them 40 days after He resurrected! So this message was never heard by an preacher for the life of Jesus up to 40 days after He arose. And even then He told them to not begin until AFTER they were endued with the Holy Ghost promise.
Well, they went to Jerusalem in
Acts 1 to get the Spirit so they could BEGIN preaching this message. And after they got the Spirit in
Acts 2:4, Peter gave the message. AND the reason apostolics tout
Acts 2;38 so much is because it is the message Jesus told them to preach in
Luke 24:47-49!
Preach:
1) Repentance. Peter said REPENT.
2) remission of sins in His name. Peter said be baptized in Jesus' name for remission of sins.
3) Jesus would send the promise of the Father. Peter said receive the Spirit because the PROMISE is to you, and all afar off as many as God shall call.
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In the conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus the words baptism and tongues were never mentioned. Not once. What WAS mentioned is belief. Eight times.
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And Jesus NEVER clearly laid out the plan of salvation ANY WHERE like HE DID THE DAY HE ASCENDED. He told the APOSTLES
they'd begin preaching after He was gone and they'd received the Spirit baptism.
Folks don't tell people these details.
And Jesus said we would BELIEVE ON HIM THROUGH THE APOSTLES' WORDS:
Joh 17:20 KJV Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jesus even said He had many things to say but they needed th SPIRIT FIRST! Just like He told them to not begin preaching til they got the SPIRIT.
Joh 16:12-13 KJV I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
And by the way, Jesus implied tongues when he spoke to Nicodemus. Jesus said a SOUND (PHONAY in Greek -- from which we get the word PHONETIC or PHONE) is heard when the Spirit is involved, like with the wind. And PHONAY in Greek means LANGUAGE. What other SOUND LANGUAGE is involved in being born of the Spirit than tongues?
But the point is Jesus said the apostles would get the Spirit, and understand all Jesus wanted them to know that HE COULD NOT EXPLAIN before that Spirit came, long after He ascended.
Whoever started this thread, please know that not many folks will tell you these details!
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In verse 16 we have the real means of new birth...
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
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And Jesus said
WE WOULD BELIEVE IN THE WAY THE APOSTLES EXPLAINED IT.
So what about martyrs? they're not saved by their own blood, that is BLASPHEMY! Nothing but the blood of Jesus saves.
We have to leave it to GOD. Period. We do not know nor can we say we know everything. Leave it to God. It's not bad to admit we simply don't know. Just do what we know the Bible says to do. And READ ALL THE ACCOUNT and not just pieces taken outside of context like this post has done.
Blessings!
He did apologize.
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