Would you stay in a church if...

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

Half the time I don't even agree with myself.

me neither!

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So, you do not sit in services pastored by someone else, or are you with a pastor and you do the teaching?

No, I do NOT "sit in services pastored by someone else." Yes, there are occasions, however, when I will attend worship services at a local UPCI assembly, that is, weather permitting and circumstances allow (I am confined to a wheelchair which makes mobility under some conditions just too difficult), but I am not a member there, do not attend on a regular basis, only sporadically, and have even informed the Pastor that I wanted only to be considered as an occasional Guest.

Why, then even attend such services, you might wonder. Well, I do so for the same reason that I listen to the TV Evangelists, or read books written by non-Apostolics: so that I might "keep abreast" of what they're propagating as truth (which also happens to be the very same reason that I am a member of AFF, and other so-called "Christian" internet forums), that is, to learn what they are propagating as truth, and then research things that interest me in an effort to determine its authenticity according to the Scriptures.

There's an advantage in learning the "tactics" of the enemy, you know, so that your defensive skills might be "honed to perfection." That's not stating that everyone who publishes something that's not scripturally sound is an agent of the enemy, aka "false prophets," only that none, not even I or any other who professes to be an adherent and advocate of Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal doctrines, have attained the coveted state of being so pious that we're beyond the enemy's ability to deceive!

I will state that some of the members of the small group, in which I function as the Teacher, also attend a local Apostollic Pentecostal assembly (non-UPCI), and several of the newer members are not of the Apostolic faith at all (one man is a former AOG member and his wife was raised in a family that were Jehovah Witnesses). This couple, as well as those who regularly attend the non-UPCI church I mentioned, have elected to become a member of this group because they believe that they're not being edified by the things which they are being taught, and after attending several sessions of our meetings, have now begun to attend regularly.

During a recent meeting, in which I taught on our need to strive for "righteousness," using our Lord's words of Matthew 6:33 wherein He commanded that we "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness" as the foundation of my remarks, the pastor of the non-UPCI church that four members regularly attend, was also in attendance, and participated in the discussions, even thanking me personally afterwards for the thing which I expressed. I was informed later that this pastor even used some of my statements in one of the sermons at that assembly.

The underlying reason WHY I have elected NOT to attend, on a regular, consistent basis, any of the local Apostolic Pentecostal churches (there are at least four UPCI assemblies, and perhaps as many as a dozen non-UPCI assemblies, mostly those of the Apostolic Faith and PAW, in the immediate vicinity of my home), would require a lengthy explanation, and because that is not the topic of this thread I shall refrain from addressing that matter here.

Anyway, being sticky to that extent over minor beliefs could very well bring the same measure meted back onto yourself. So, you better not be wrong in anything at the moment.

First, I beg that it be understood that I am NOT asserting, or even suggesting in any manner whatsoever, that there exists NO possibility errors could exist in any of my beliefs. However, I must state this: In all that I do, and endeavor to teach others, I try to keep at the fore of my thoughts and goals, and with the guidance of the Spirit, this one thing - "perfection." Indeed, that is exactly what we, as chosen "sons of God" have been commanded to do: "Be ye therefore PERFECT, even as tour Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48). Indeed, it is my constant prayer that should I be amiss in any of my beliefs, God would do for me as He has promised, that is, "guide ... into ALL truth," AND "shew ... things to come" (John 16:13).

Therefore, knowing also that I have been commanded to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rigtly dividing the word of truth" (II Timothy 2:15); while recognizing and acknowledging that neither water nor Spirit baptisms render void, or remove that carnal mindset that we're each born with, but must diligently strive toward achieving the goal of being "not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the RENEWING of your mind, that ye may prove what is good, and acceptable, and PERFECT, will of God" (Romans 12:2), accordingly, I do NOT "lean" unto my own mortal, finite abilities of reasoning, instead I seek to be obedient to the command to "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart;" (Proverbs 3:5).

Me, I know I am likely wrong somewhere, although if I knew where, I would change the belief, obviously. So, I treat the issue the way I want to be treated should I be wrong.

If you are truly being honest with your ownself in making the first of these statements, and do KNOW that you re "likely wrong somewhere," but are unaware of where you're wrong, then with utmost candor I must ask - Why haven't you exercised the FAITH which you profess that you possess in God, and ask Him to help you to learn wherin you are amiss in your understanding, and "guide" you into ALL truth? Your statement, and I'm being as candid as I can possibly be in saying this, with no malice or intentional belittlement intended, strikes me as quite startling, considering the fact that you publicly claim to be a "man of God" who has assumed the responsibility of teaching others the fundamental principles of God's written word. I find that most astounding, indeed!

In closing, allow me to state that seeing we are advised that God is PERFECT, and that we are commanded to strive for that SAME perfection (Matthew 5:48), and that He has "set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers" (I Corinthians 12:28), and these for the purpose of "the PERFECTING of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ," (Ephesians 4:12), then pray tell me just how you, or any other, are able to even intimate that God is pleased when we KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY allow even the most minute degree of error to be present in those things which we believe and practice? Did not Paul advised us that our Lord Jesus Christ is returning to receive and present unto Himself "a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and WITHOUT blemish" (Ephesians 5:27)?

Remember, we are told in the words of Revelation 21:27, speaking of those who will be allowed entrance into the eternal kingdom of God, that "there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or MAKETH A LIE: ..."

So, berate, belittle, or even revile me for "being sticky to that extent over minor beliefs" if that is your desire, but I want for you to know that I DO STRIVE to be obedient to the command to become PERFECT in my understanding of things, and ALWAYS instruct those whom I teach to PROVE the scriptural merits and authenticity of everything I teach by comparison to the written Word of God. To date, none have found reason to refute what I proclaim as truth, yea, even the Lord Himself, by a "message in tongues and interpretation" during one of our recent meeting, stated that He is "well pleased" with our actions in seeking His "righteousness" and "perfection," and that if we will but continue on our present course, our reward is assured. What better witness could one ask for, in assurinng them that they're on the "right pathway"? I know of none!

[mfblume]

Thanks for your explanation.

Originally Posted by Lafon

If you are truly being honest with your ownself in making the first of these statements, and do KNOW that you re "likely wrong somewhere," but are unaware of where you're wrong, then with utmost candor I must ask - Why haven't you exercised the FAITH which you profess that you possess in God, and ask Him to help you to learn wherin you are amiss in your understanding, and "guide" you into ALL truth?

I do that all the time. And trust Him to answer consistently. In fact, I believe that is what the part of the Lord's prayer means when it says we must pray to not be led into temptation and delivered from evil. I always make that prayer for God to correct me. Always.

Your statement, and I'm being as candid as I can possibly be in saying this, with no malice or intentional belittlement intended, strikes me as quite startling, considering the fact that you publicly claim to be a "man of God" who has assumed the responsibility of teaching others the fundamental principles of God's written word. I find that most astounding, indeed!

I would think that someone who could not make that statement should not be a man of God.

In closing, allow me to state that seeing we are advised that God is PERFECT, and that we are commanded to strive for that SAME perfection (Matthew 5:48), and that He has "set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers" (I Corinthians 12:28), and these for the purpose of "the PERFECTING of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ," (Ephesians 4:12), then pray tell me just how you, or any other, are able to even intimate that God is pleased when we KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY allow even the most minute degree of error to be present in those things which we believe and practice? Did not Paul advised us that our Lord Jesus Christ is returning to receive and present unto Himself "a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and WITHOUT blemish" (Ephesians 5:27)?

First of all, that passage in Eph 5 from Paul is speaking about what happens when we are first baptized into His death. We are without spot or wrinkle. But the point is the :Lord directed us to always pray for ourselves to be delivered from temptation. When Jesus explained that part of the prayer later on in the sermon on the mount he was speaking about beware of false prophets who can deceive us, and about the narrow and the broad way.

Remember, we are told in the words of Revelation 21:27, speaking of those who will be allowed entrance into the eternal kingdom of God, that "there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or MAKETH A LIE: ..."

So, berate, belittle, or even revile me for "being sticky to that extent over minor beliefs" if that is your desire, but I want for you to know that I DO STRIVE to be obedient to the command to become PERFECT in my understanding of things, and ALWAYS instruct those whom I teach to PROVE the scriptural merits and authenticity of everything I teach by comparison to the written Word of God.

Who berated you or reviled you for it? Just saying we will be meted forth with the same attitude we have towards others is not berating nor reviling you.

The fact is that if you are not perfect in your understanding but yet require perfect understanding in the ministry of a church you will attend, then I think that is inconsistency. The Lord's prayer also directs us to pray for forgiveness and to forgive others the same way we want it for ourselves. That's the golden rule in action. If you allow for yourself to have the need to seek correction should you be wrong, then we must allow that in others, too.

To date, none have found reason to refute what I proclaim as truth, yea, even the Lord Himself, by a "message in tongues and interpretation" during one of our recent meeting, stated that He is "well pleased" with our actions in seeking His "righteousness" and "perfection," and that if we will but continue on our present course, our reward is assured. What better witness could one ask for, in assurinng them that they're on the "right pathway"? I know of none!

Speaking of righteousness, we already have it when we're saved. So I cannot stand with you on that interpretation of tongues. But I'm not berating you or ridiculing you for it.

[mfblume]

What I am trying to say ,after more thought, is that if we are not perfect in our understanding and we strive toward perfection, then there is some error in us. See? If you do not claim perfection in understanding then there is error in you and that means you should know there is. That's what I mean. I am not perfect in my understanding so there are some flaws somewhere.

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Me, I know I am likely wrong somewhere, although if I knew where, I would change the belief, obviously. So, I treat the issue the way I want to be treated should I be wrong.

Bless you. Most pastors/teachers refuse to do that.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Lafon

The highlighted portion of your statement is excerpted from a "tradition of man" (composed by Witherspoon at the meeting in which two ministerial licensing agencies joined to form the UPC), however, it is NOT Scriptural! Indeed, it is far from it. Please allow me to explain ...

In the words of Ephesians 4:1-3 (NLT) it is written - "Therefore I, a prisoner for serving the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of your calling, for you have been called by God. Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other’s faults because of your love. Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace.”

Within the context of these passages Paul is speaking of the "unity of the Spirit" among brethren, sort of another way of saying the same thing he penned in the words of I Corinthians 1:10 - "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

However, in the words of Ephesians 4:11-13 (NLT) Paul is speaking of an entirely different matter, to wit: "Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.”

Do you grasp the different issues being addressed within the context of these two portions of Paul's writings? In the former he is referring to "unity" among brethren to the extent that it "mirrors" that of the Spirit, whereas in the latter he is referring to the "functions" and "purposes" of the various gifts which God gives to some members of the church which will bring them into a "unity of the faith." These are two distinctly different issues, and NOT as Witherspoon concluded.

Now if that was not bad enough, Witherspoon really went "off the deep end" and added this addendum to his Fundamental Doctrine Statement: "We shall endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit until we all come into the unity of the faith, at the same time admonishing all brethren that they shall not contend for their differing views to the disunity of the body." That statement stands in direct conflict with Jude's admonition, to wit, “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3, KJV).

I would rather heed Jude's words than Witherspoon's.



Very true!



Christ Jesus said otherwise in the words of Matthew 12:25, to wit, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand."



Sadly, many today, do just have you've done; fail to take heed to two “key” words the Hebrews writer used in prefacing the six elements or components which comprise the entire teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment” (Hebrews 6:1-2, KJV).

These two words are “principles,” or truths which form the very “foundation” of everything which our Lord taught. What happens when imperfect mortals, such as we all are, neglect to take note of these two words? Well, we begin to add to them, or change them in one form or another, just as you’ve done, and yet you classify them as “fundamental.” Admittedly, all of the things you stated as being “fundamental” are true, but they are NOT those “principles” which comprise the “foundation” of our Lord’s doctrine!

My thoughts about the matter.

I am not sure what you are trying to say in reference to my statement about fundamental doctrine. I referenced Heb 6, including all six parts, but fundamental doctrine is not limited to just those six things. For example the identity of Christ is part of the very foundation of the faith.

In regards to the unity of the Spirit, I will study and pray about that. Thank you for bringing up Witherspoon, I was not aware of him. It sometimes happens that we think we remember Scripture when we are really remembering tradition.

As for Paul and the "second advent" I'd like to at least hear your presentation of this mystery.

[Esphes45]

Maybe I am naive but when I go to a church I am expecting 100% truth. 99 and a half won't do. Anything less I believe people are wasting their time. They that worship God must worship him in spirit and in truth. When you accept less you are short-changing God. So you tell me that God came down here, got in a body and went through all that just so we could go to a building/house and not be told 100% truth? I'm shocked to be honest at some of the responses. If we weed out the opinions that are taught in church I believe truth exists.

Lafon in his post quoted all the scriptures that came to my head as I was reading this thread. One being John 16:13. I say this ... If you are unsure of something don't teach it. Wait and pray for understanding from God. Study, Pray and Wait on God.

[shazeep]

unfortunately, we as laymen have a naive view of ministry; and many/most pastors, being 'affiliated,' have signed a pledge to honor/teach the doctrine of their affiliation, future revelations from the Holy Spirit notwithstanding. While they would certainly be free to adjust their preaching in light of any such revelations, they would be forced to leave their affiliated church post to do so.

[votivesoul]

I don't see "a" church. Just "the" church. As such, I will never leave "the" church over disagreements with people a part of "a" church.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by shazeep

unfortunately, we as laymen have a naive view of ministry; and many/most pastors, being 'affiliated,' have signed a pledge to honor/teach the doctrine of their affiliation, future revelations from the Holy Spirit notwithstanding. While they would certainly be free to adjust their preaching in light of any such revelations, they would be forced to leave their affiliated church post to do so.

That is precisely what one Pastor, who, BTW, was a licensed minister (since deceased) that held a "high office" in the UPCI, stated to me more than 20 years ago. Although he agreed that what I disclosed to him proved he was guilty of teachings things NOT scriptural, he told me that his integrity would demand that he relinguish his license should he teach what I had shown him, for it was contrary to the doctrines he agreed to teach when signing the document to obtain his license.

I was tremendously grieved at his words, and subsequent response in continuing to teach the error which he had acknowledged to me, for I was reminded of what Paul wrote to the Galatian church - "For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." (Galatians 1:10)

Sadly, that man was not alone in KNOWINGLY teaching something that has been indisputably proven to them is not truth! Many continue to do the same thing, and most have become so complacent that they do not even recognize the dangers involved in their own conceit!