Church Overseers/Leaders

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

LOL oh I know just what you are saying. Here is the thing as I see it, where does it say that the local assembly only has one shepherd? One of the primary reasons I don't see the five fold ministry as offices a prophet is not an office, neither is an apostle, so why do we think that the shepherd is an office. One that has the spirit of a shepherd, does not control, they help and guide, and lead. Much the same thing can be said of an apostle, by definition, an apostle is one that has been sent, period. Sent to some place other than their local assembly to take the good news else where. The original 11 apostles were sent to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria then to the uttermost parts of the world. This is exactly what they did. Paul was sent to the Gentiles, while he first went to the Jews, as this was God will, he then went to the gentiles, after giving the Jews the opportunity first. And many Jews living abroad did in fact receive his word.

The fact remains, if we lay aside our preconceived traditions of church hierarchy the early church chose or ordained elders (plural) for the administrative oversight of the church, more than anything else.
That is the way I have come to see it anyway.

Well surprisingly neither Peter nor Paul were pastors of any church.
The bishop of the church in Jerusalem was actually James, not Peter.

Paul established many churches, yet he never pastored any church.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I found this very informative concerning this question.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1812...1067694905052/

Just so you don't get hung up, this link will direct you to a facebook page, you will then need to click on the link for the study, Men will be Kings. This thesis was written by a man while doing a course in Greek.

Loren, I've download this document (85 pages) and have been in the process of reading and scripturally validating everything it contains (quite a task, believe me). As soon as I get it finished I will inform you of my opinion. So far I find it extremely interesting. Thanks for the alert!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Well surprisingly neither Peter nor Paul were pastors of any church.
The bishop of the church in Jerusalem was actually James, not Peter.

Paul established many churches, yet he never pastored any church.

Paul was an Apostle. A pastor is a shepherd, a spiritual mentor and teacher. As an Apostle, Paul functioned pastorally. Let's not forget that Paul wrote pastoral epistles (I Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus).

[Aquila]

It's my understanding that the elders/overseer was the offices of the local church. These were warmly regarded and more like spiritual mentors within a family than CEO's of non-prophet corporations. In addition, most churches had more than one. Now, within the body we see at least five ministries held by elders...

(1) apostles - church wide authorities
(2) prophets - those who operated in the prophetic gifts
(3) evangelists - those who traveled to preach the gospel
(4) pastors - local authorities in the church
(5) teachers - those who recorded and transmitted sound doctrine

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It's my understanding that the elders/overseer was the offices of the local church. These were warmly regarded and more like spiritual mentors within a family than CEO's of non-prophet corporations. In addition, most churches had more than one. Now, within the body we see at least five ministries held by elders...

(1) apostles - church wide authorities
(2) prophets - those who operated in the prophetic gifts
(3) evangelists - those who traveled to preach the gospel
(4) pastors - local authorities in the church
(5) teachers - those who recorded and transmitted sound doctrine

Aquila, I say back that up with, the witness of two or three scriptures. Let me ask you. If Paul wrote this to the church in Ephesus. Then why did he not repeat these instruction to the other churches the same way we have interpreted this passage?
I find it surprising, that the word translated pastor here is not translated anywhere else in the NT with the same connotation that we have given the word shepherd here in this passage.
Yet we have built a whole church structure based on this one passage.
Line this meaning with Paul's instruction to the church in Corinth.
1corinthians 12. I am speaking of the term pastors as local authorities to the church.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It's my understanding that the elders/overseer was the offices of the local church. These were warmly regarded and more like spiritual mentors within a family than CEO's of non-prophet corporations. In addition, most churches had more than one. Now, within the body we see at least five ministries held by elders...

While I agree that elders/overseers were more like spiritual mentors within a family. I do not agree that they were offices of authority, as man has deemed them to be.
Scripture repeatedly says that the head ship of the body, is God, Christ, husband, wife, children. Not God, Christ, Pastor, husband, wife. Eph. 5, I Cor. 11. Col. 3,
In all of these passages the writer tells us we are to submit one to another, never one over another.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Loren, I've download this document (85 pages) and have been in the process of reading and scripturally validating everything it contains (quite a task, believe me). As soon as I get it finished I will inform you of my opinion. So far I find it extremely interesting. Thanks for the alert!

After careful consideration of the above mentioned document, I find that I MUST reject its contents as being Scripturally sound. Here is why.....

It was written by a proponent who embraces an Amillienial(sp?) view of eschatology (end-time prophecy). As such it is Preterist ("kingdom now") in its essence; a belief system which I adamantly reject!

Its opening comments seemed extremely interesting because they addressed the issue of church leadership, much of which I found myself in agreement with because I am a proponent of Eldership as opposed to the present Roman Catholic monarchial bishopry system which establishes a Pastor as the spiritual head of each assembly of God's saints.

As a long time member of the Church of Christ (to which the author of the paper proclaims himself a member), I am well aware of their teachings, but must confess, I was not aware of the depth of their beliefs of eschaology (all the years I was a member it never seemed to be a topic that was given much attention, and after examining this document I can understand why - it generates too much controversy, and that is something this denomination shuns, whenever possible).

Following my conversion to Oneness Apostolic Pentecostalism, after which I first learned of a "rapture" of the church, I chose to expend whatever time might be required to establish the Scriptural merits of this teaching, and after doing so, came to the conclusion that it was not a doctrine that either our Lord or His chosen apostles taught. My studies of this matter has prompted me to not only reject ALL rapturist teachings (i.e., pre, mid, post, pre-wrath, etc), electing instead to embrace that which Jesus Christ and His apostles taught about the resurrection of the dead.