You Can Fake It All

[Jermyn Davidson]

I agree with ILG on this subject.

I'm a guy who was raised in this and lived this for 34 years.

I attend a different church now and there just isn't the pressure, or even expectation to look or act the part.

[n david]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Forum Link

Why don't you, ILG and whoever else hates the UPC go to that forum and you all can whine and complain together about how rotten and horrible the UPC is.

[endtimer]

Originally Posted by n david

Same regurgitated junk over and over.

This is true. ILG described in great detail the church my parents were converted in and I ultimately grew up in. Many lives were hurt in that place. There are those who regurgitate the same ol junk, my father being one of them, that went on and nobody is helped in this. Then there are those like me, who have moved on and have flourished despite our crippling past. I know legalism, bad pastors and hypocrisy well and stewing over the injustice of it all will get you no where.

[jediwill83]

Ive heard stewing and harping from one organization about another and the same vice versa.Ive listened to ranting and harping about other denominations from Pentecostals and also about Pentecostals from other denominations.Ill be the first to admit that I can rant and harp on my pet peeves.One reason I do this is because when you are raised in something and you are molded and shaped by those beliefs and then later encounter reality and realize that some of those beliefs...not all but some are wrong you kinda fight a war with your convictions and what you were raised as daily.... ranting is a way of expressing that internal battle and conflict...its a way of keeping oneself alert to your beliefs instead of just passively accepting whats fed to you.Whats been mentioned on this thread is not a problem with just one certain organization or denomination...trust me it exists allllll over.That broad brush is held by many.You do realize that that broad brush mentality is perpetuated over the pulpit dont you? How many "Us VS Them" semons have you heard where this and that denomination is blasted for whatever reason or even closer to home maybe another oneness church that has *looser* standards? You NEVER hear a sermon where the preacher takes into account individual behavior its always lumped into the same group as if all in that church or organization believe and behave the exact same way.Its easy to blast large entities because its personal but break that down and we are all individual believers that have a wide range of beliefs and views.Sorry if this seems disjointed Im not trying to join one side or the other in this argument...just wanted to try to express a larger issue that Im still trying to figure out myself.

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by ILG

...The difference between the UPC and these other churches is that they aren't constantly measuring who is in and who is out.

I have experienced other denominations (esp. varieties of Pentecostal) who *do* likewise measure who is in and who is out. But with non-ultra cons, the difference is that the measurements are not so often the subject at Denny's or IHOP after services.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by ILG

It is easy to fake "salvation" as the UPC defines it.

Repentance is easy to fake. Just go to the altar and look sorrowful.

Baptism. Just do it.

Tongues? I have heard lots of fake tongues in my life. Just sound like everybody else.

What many consider proof of God in your life, standards, are easy to fake, just follow the list.

Who has motive to fake salvation? All those who are being or have been pressured by wives, mothers, husbands, fathers, kids and friends to "get saved".

In a culture that greatly pressures people to get "saved" or go to hell and constantly measures who is "in" and who is "out", there is great pressure on people to "get saved" to get people off their back. They might not even know they are faking because they don't even know what the real experience is. Since this formula is so traditional and passed down from generation to generation to "be saved" there are likely a great many in the UPC and other apostolic churches that don't have a clue what true salvation is, they are just following the formula. The same thing is true in all churches but many other churches don't constantly measure who is "in" and who is "out".

The UPC taught me they were different. But they are not. Some in the UPC have faith and some do not. There is no formula for salvation to prove to another you are saved, no way to say "You are in and you are out".

It's easy to fake salvation as ANYONE defines it, why pick on the UPCI *again*???

[Esther]

ILG you need to be careful you don't judge the Word of God by man. The failures of man does not change the award of God.

Look to Jesus and not man. Man is sure to fail you.

Anyone faking it is to their own detriment.

[Praxeas]

You have to admit that when UPCers see constant railing against them they have a legitimate reason for believing there is some bitterness there.

[Reader]

When someone is sharing of their own background, I do not see it as "picking on" that group. If ILG had come from a Baptist type church and posted similar, would the same ones say she is railing against or picking on the Baptists? She also clearly noted in the OP, "The same thing is true in all churches..."

Instead of dismissing the post without giving it much thought, could you consider that she may have a point? Especially this: "Since this formula is so traditional and passed down from generation to generation to "be saved" there are likely a great many in the UPC and other apostolic churches that don't have a clue what true salvation is, they are just following the formula."

Consider something I saw in the post, if you could set aside the thought that she is railing on the UPC. Is it not possible that there are people there who follow all the rules, so to speak, but who really don't have that real knowledge of Jesus or a lasting relationship with him? Could some in the church press these rules so much to the point where ones coming in might just see the necessity of the rules and focus on them and neglect what the rules are supposed to be all about? Have some focused too much on a "formula" to give security? Isn't this what the Pharisees did to their converts? They were so into "getting it right" that when Jesus, their Messiah came, they not know or recognize him. In addition, they also had people looking to them and thinking they were a great example and saved......when they were not. (I am not mentioning the Pharisees to insinuate that the UPC is the equivalent of them, but using their example to show a point that I believe the OP was sharing. The Pharisees has a "formula" and were adamant about it, yet so many of them missed knowing God.)

If this is so, that in essence there are people "going through the motions" in the churches but not truly having that knowledge or personal relationship with Jesus, what can be done about it? What changes could be made in the churches to stop, or at least greatly hinder, such from happening?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Reader

When someone is sharing of their own background, I do not see it as "picking on" that group. If ILG had come from a Baptist type church and posted similar, would the same ones say she is railing against or picking on the Baptists? She also clearly noted in the OP, "The same thing is true in all churches..."

On a Baptist forum? Yes I would...

Mind you though, the problem isn't this ONE thread. The problem is this goes on over and over and over and over and over