How Tenuous is Your Salvation

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Esaias

When does a person become accountable for their sins?

That seems to be the question you are asking.

I would suggest that when a person knows to do right, and does it not, they are accountable for what they know, and their actions.

Keep in mind, too, that salvation as presented in the bible does not present 'individual, personal salvation' as the be all, end all of 'salvation'. Salvation, redemption, is a covenant thing.

God redeemed a PEOPLE, a covenant nation. Salvation is only possible by membership in that covenant nation. Being outside that covenant nation one is automatically 'lost' to begin with.

But notice:

Isa 56:6
¶
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:7
Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Isa 56:8
The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

and again:

Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14
¶
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Eph 2:17
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 2:19
¶
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

The covenantal, national aspect of redemption has been SERIOUSLY overlooked by most professing Christians over the last 100 years or so.

No, that really wasn't my question. My question was concerning the issue of the newborn, the child, or the aborted for that matter. When does a person become 'unsaved' in order for the to need to be saved? And I'm using the term 'saved' here in the sense of missing hell, being with God, not dying eternally....that kind of thing.

If an infant, or a child, is saved, how is that infant or child saved? They have no concept of Christ being the Son of God.

[votivesoul]

To: seekerman,

Towards your original question, I offer the following link:

http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/...er-hayyim.html

You may enjoy reading the article, and get an answer at the same time.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

To: seekerman,

Towards your original question, I offer the following link:

http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/...er-hayyim.html

You may enjoy reading the article, and get an answer at the same time.

I don't do links. If you could put it in your own words?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by seekerman

No, that really wasn't my question. My question was concerning the issue of the newborn, the child, or the aborted for that matter. When does a person become 'unsaved' in order for the to need to be saved? And I'm using the term 'saved' here in the sense of missing hell, being with God, not dying eternally....that kind of thing.

If an infant, or a child, is saved, how is that infant or child saved? They have no concept of Christ being the Son of God.

Seems to me I answered your question, then.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Seems to me I answered your question, then.

No, you answered only half of it. I'm assuming by your statement "I would suggest that when a person knows to do right, and does it not, they are accountable for what they know, and their actions" your view is that a person, at some point in their maturity, by their sinful actions, will lost their salvation, not go to heaven, ect.

This question remains though. If an infant, or a child, is saved, how is that infant or child initially saved? They have no concept of Christ being the Son of God or of right or wrong or the commandments of God.

[Real Realism]

Plus, children know "right" from wrong at an early age, but are still developing the discipline and self-control to avoid the wrong - even having experienced the baptism of the Holy Ghost at a young age.

Did I know it was wrong to punch my friend at the age of 7, for shoving me aside to climb over my backyard fence before I could? Yep - even though I'd received the Spirit, spoke in tongues when I prayed, and chose to be baptized that very day. But I was childish and lacking self control. Were my actions sinful?

And if, as seekerman is questioning, I hadn't experienced anything of Christ at that point in my life, and I behaved in a selfish, hurtful manner (as children often do), would I at the age of 7 years old be "lost in my sins"?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by seekerman

No, you answered only half of it. I'm assuming by your statement "I would suggest that when a person knows to do right, and does it not, they are accountable for what they know, and their actions" your view is that a person, at some point in their maturity, by their sinful actions, will lost their salvation, not go to heaven, ect.

This question remains though. If an infant, or a child, is saved, how is that infant or child initially saved? They have no concept of Christ being the Son of God or of right or wrong or the commandments of God.

A few thoughts, not that I have all the answers...

1. Who says infants are 'saved' to begin with? You seem to be assuming they are 'saved' first, then at some point 'lose their salvation' requiring them to be re-saved. But who says so? Does the Bible say so?

2. I don't think we can lump all infants and small children in together as one big group of people. I think the bible indicates there is a difference between the children of those who are in covenant with God, and the children of those who are not. As I said, the modern emphasis on 'personal, individual salvation' seems lopsided and unbiblical.

3. Considering the goal of the gospel is not to 'get people to heaven', but to free them from the curse of sin and death and ignorance of God, perhaps we have the wrong focus here.

4. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, because if a person has heard the gospel, the question is not 'what if' or 'what about' but 'what say YE' The others are in God's hands, obviously.

[Disciple4life]

[QUOTE=Esaias;1282013]

3. Considering the goal of the gospel is not to 'get people to heaven', but to free them from the curse of sin and death and ignorance of God, perhaps we have the wrong focus here.

QUOTE]

I was always told that the gospel was to "save them from hell"?

[Esaias]

A person can be either moral, immoral, or amoral. That is, they can have a good moral character, a bad moral character, or no moral character whatsoever (good or bad).

Is a child moral, immoral, or amoral?

On the one hand, the Bible seems to indicate children and infants have access to God, thus a child or infant is in a state of 'right standing' with God until they sin.

On the other hand, the bible seems to indicate that children of unbelievers are 'unclean' and thus not recipients of the benefits of the covenant.

God made a Covenant with Abraham, which included his whole household. The same was true of the Israel at Sinai. The NT seems to indicate the same is true - 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy household.'

Of course, there is also quite a bit of interaction with personal accountability, and as Paul says, circumcision is of the heart (ie this would require some degree of knowledge and wilfulness, thus infants would not be included in that description??).

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Disciple4life

I was always told that the gospel was to "save them from hell"?

Hell, as in Hades/death, which is the wages of sin.

Hell, as in Gehenna/wrath of God which is the righteous judgement of God against the wicked.

Jesus came to 'save his people from their sins'.

We have been delivered from death, and are passed into Life.

The catholic doctrine of 'going to heaven to spend our days in a mansion of gold' comes straight from Pharisaic traditions of men.