Human Effort In Salvation?

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by crakjak

My understanding is that the Spirit and the bride never stop calling to those outside the open gates, "Come". And those outside the open gates continue to come, until EVERY mouth confesses and every knee bows, and declare Jesus to be Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Thought: forced confession would not be glory to the Father.) Then when ALL have come to right relationship to Jesus, then He will God will be "...all in all..." Which can never the case as long as anything or anyone is outside of Him. The elect or the church will participate in the completion of all things, as the bride is calling "Come", ruling over those that are still in transit, and also BTW, "...don't you know that you will judge angels..." as well.

Why would God Almighty create, only to condemn the majority??? When He has the will and the power to redeem ALL?? Redemption is not holding guiltless, if also includes the process of purification. Fire is the symbol of this purification, as in wheat and chaff, and as in gold and silver and dross.

In short, is it your belief that once someone is cast into the lake of fire it's possible for them to exit said lake of fire and enter into Holy Jerusalem?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

In short, is it your belief that once someone is cast into the lake of fire it's possible for them to exit said lake of fire and enter into Holy Jerusalem?

God is not a torturer, all fire is ultimately for purification. The lake of fire is the second death, all death will be destroyed before God can be "all in all".

Why is it, that everything in Revelation is considered symbolic, except when we get to fire, especially the "lake of fire" and it is literal??

When fire consumes the combustible material it goes out, dross, chaff, symbolize evil, these are the combustible material. God redeems the life that is His out of each of His creatures. When God created man, He said, "It is very good!" He will redeem that "very good" out of every creature. As He will do of the complete cosmos, because it is all very good.

[Tim Rutledge]

Originally Posted by crakjak

God is not a torturer, all fire is ultimately for purification. The lake of fire is the second death, all death will be destroyed before God can be "all in all".

Why is it, that everything in Revelation is considered symbolic, except when we get to fire, especially the "lake of fire" and it is literal??

When fire consumes the combustible material it goes out, dross, chaff, symbolize evil, these are the combustible material. God redeems the life that is His out of each of His creatures. When God created man, He said, "It is very good!" He will redeem that "very good" out of every creature. As He will do of the complete cosmos, because it is all very good.

In your opinion crakjak.. no souls spend a literal eternity seperated from God?

(I'm not going to argue, just wondering what you believe)

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

In your opinion crakjak.. no souls spend a literal eternity seperated from God?

(I'm not going to argue, just wondering what you believe)

Tim,

God had a purpose in creating, and the allowance for evil to enter His creation is part of that purpose. We run this course in order to prepare us for the ages to come. His ultimate purpose is the to bring all creation into order, everyone in to right relationship with Him and with each other.

The elect, church, "the called out ones", those that hear His call in this age will participate in the bringing the rest to that place of relationship.

I believe scripture reveals that God has the love, the power, and the will, therefore in evidently will reclaim everything that He created. Then He will be, ALL in ALL, no one and no thing will be lost from His "very good" creation. Death and its accompanying evil will be completely destroy, from all creation.

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Tim,

God had a purpose in creating, and the allowance for evil to enter His creation is part of that purpose. We run this course in order to prepare us for the ages to come. His ultimate purpose is the to bring all creation into order, everyone in to right relationship with Him and with each other.

The elect, church, "the called out ones", those that hear His call in this age will participate in the bringing the rest to that place of relationship.

I believe scripture reveals that God has the love, the power, and the will, therefore in evidently will reclaim everything that He created. Then He will be, ALL in ALL, no one and no thing will be lost from His "very good" creation. Death and its accompanying evil will be completely destroy, from all creation.

Are the devil and his angels eventually purified in the lake of fire in order to enter Holy Jerusalem or do they stay in the lake of fire?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

Are the devil and his angels eventually purified in the lake of fire in order to enter Holy Jerusalem or do they stay in the lake of fire?

The lake of fire is the 2nd death, all death is destroyed, so eventually there will be no "lake of fire".

However, your question assumes literal fire, which it is not. God is a consuming fire, which simply means that He consumes all evil.

Now to answer your question:

There was a day when satan was a beautiful being, if THE consuming fire completes His work on Him, it is reasonable that the "very good" of his original state is redeemed. And I believe that is exactly what God does, redeems every iota of HIS creation. He said that each part of it in Genesis is "very good".

Man tries to put God in a box, He does not allow it. The Jewish religious leaders tried the same thing, didn't work then, won't work now, concerning the consummation of ALL things, that God may be "ALL in ALL".

Ezekiel states that Sodom and her sister cities will be restored to their former state, God has a purpose that is the complete redemption of His creation.

I didn't include scripture references, but if you are well studied you will recognize what scripture is being referred to with each statement. If not, sorry, I'm not going to argue by proof texting, if you don't recognize the truth of what I present, I wouldn't be able to convince you.

[stephenroehm]

Luke 16:19-31

There was a certain rich man who was customarily clothed in purple and fine linen and making merry in luxury every day. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, who was laid at his gate, full of sores and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. But even the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried.

And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."

But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you cannot, nor can they pass over to us from there."

And he said, "I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment."

Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them."

And he said, "No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent."

And he said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead."

It's too bad the rich man didn't know about the message you are teaching. It seems as if he couldn't get out of hades, though he wanted to badly. He couldn't even get a drop of water, let alone get across the chasm to Abraham's Bosom. It's been nice talking with you.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

Luke 16:19-31

There was a certain rich man who was customarily clothed in purple and fine linen and making merry in luxury every day. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, who was laid at his gate, full of sores and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. But even the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it happened that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich one also died and was buried.

And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."

But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things. But now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you cannot, nor can they pass over to us from there."

And he said, "I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment."

Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them."

And he said, "No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent."

And he said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead."

It's too bad the rich man didn't know about the message you are teaching. It seems as if he couldn't get out of hades, though he wanted to badly. He couldn't even get a drop of water, let alone get across the chasm to Abraham's Bosom. It's been nice talking with you.

It is simple, it is a parable to convey the story of Israel and the Gentiles, it in no way is teaching eternal damnation. It tells a very important story, but most Christians have no clue as to the content, because of the false and blasphemous teaching of God as a torturer, and as one that starts something and is unable to finish it, without losing the vast majority of His creation. Your doctrine built on this parable is so full of holes it is laughable.

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by crakjak

It is simple, it is a parable to convey the story of Israel and the Gentiles, it in no way is teaching eternal damnation. It tells a very important story, but most Christians have no clue as to the content, because of the false and blasphemous teaching of God as a torturer, and as one that starts something and is unable to finish it, without losing the vast majority of His creation. Your doctrine built on this parable is so full of holes it is laughable.

I hope you are right and I am wrong. I hope one day we will both laugh at "my doctrine" as it will be so hilarious to sit back and think about how childish it was for me to have thought that there was an actual lake of fire made of actual fire where those who rejected and rebelled against God went and were in actual agony for an actual eternity. I hope one day, God will sit me down and help me to understand what His Word meant when it said,

Luke 13:23-28 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out..

Jeremiah 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Ephesians 5:5-6 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:5-6 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Peter 2:4-9 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I guess we'll both see in time. I do like the sound of the Gospel you preach more than mine. It's much easier on the ears and is presented as if, no matter how I live now (or in the ages to come), there is still a chance for reconciliation with God. If Satan himself has a chance to be pulled out of the Lake of Fire, which is really just another opportunity God gives us to be purified, I will have that chance, also!

It is easier on the ears and the conscience to hear that the Gospel may even save the devil one day than to hear that there is a real sin to be repented of before physical death, there is a real Cross on Calvary's Hill where real blood was shed, that you must really be born again of the water and the spirit, that there is a coming age where you will either find yourself in a real Lake of Fire or a real Holy Jerusalem, and you will either find yourself in the presence of God forever or away from the presence of God forever.

I hope you're right. Your version is much more pleasant.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

I hope you are right and I am wrong. I hope one day we will both laugh at "my doctrine" as it will be so hilarious to sit back and think about how childish it was for me to have thought that there was an actual lake of fire made of actual fire where those who rejected and rebelled against God went and were in actual agony for an actual eternity. I hope one day, God will sit me down and help me to understand what His Word meant when it said,

Luke 13:23-28 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out..

Jeremiah 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Ephesians 5:5-6 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:5-6 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Peter 2:4-9 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I guess we'll both see in time. I do like the sound of the Gospel you preach more than mine. It's much easier on the ears and is presented as if, no matter how I live now (or in the ages to come), there is still a chance for reconciliation with God. If Satan himself has a chance to be pulled out of the Lake of Fire, which is really just another opportunity God gives us to be purified, I will have that chance, also!

It is easier on the ears and the conscience to hear that the Gospel may even save the devil one day than to hear that there is a real sin to be repented of before physical death, there is a real Cross on Calvary's Hill where real blood was shed, that you must really be born again of the water and the spirit, that there is a coming age where you will either find yourself in a real Lake of Fire or a real Holy Jerusalem, and you will either find yourself in the presence of God forever or away from the presence of God forever.

I hope you're right. Your version is much more pleasant.

Good response. But it is not all peaches and cream, everyone must give up their deceptions, and that is very hard for folks. The refiner's fire while not literal fire, does do a work of refining, and that is not necessarily a walk in the park.

But it is more becoming of the all mighty, who never gives up, whose mercy never fails.

Man has distorted and literalized the symbolic language of the Hebrew and Greek, that was very common and easily understood for those in whose day it was written.

The Word of God, while still containing the revelation of Jesus Christ, has been filtered thru centuries of the Roman state church and Western Christianity.

Eternal life is knowing the Son of God and the Father who sent him, first relationship with him thru the Spirit, then He opens our eyes and ears to see and to hear.