Universal Salvation

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I don't know if Bro. Blume believes in eternal torment. And my questions are reasonable questions for someone considering this subject. Care to take on some of the questions, instead of just trying to direct the argument into your comfort zone? Obfuscate the issue would you?

I did take some on and remembe we've had this discussion indepth. However in the course of having a dialogue I have to point out the logical inconsistancies in your arguments. If what you believe is the truth then you don't need to embelish it or help it along. Do you want to win an argument for the sake of winning or do you want truth to be revealed?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Let's throw this in the mix, Rev.22.15 mentions the dogs and sorcerers, etc outside the city. Then in verse 17, "...the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who thirst come. Whoever desires, let him take of the water of life freely." So apparently, after all is said and done thru all the Revelation, the Spirit is still saying "Come!"

This doesn't seem to fit the eternally lost timeline, this is after the Great White Throne judgment, after the coming of the New Jerusalem. Why are those dogs not in the pit or the lake?

These are some of the things in scripture that caused me to study and has led to my current position.

This verse is not future tense. It's present tense. The Spirit and the Bride is saying "come" right now!

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by crakjak

You do err, not knowing the scripture, and interpreting scripture to make God to be tyrannical monster, rather than a loving Heavenly Father. Your interpretions, "maligns God's character before the world." I Cor. 13.8 "Love never fails,"

These scriptures are hyperbolic descriptions of God's purposes for men on the earth and in NO way is describing man's ultimate end.

Oh yeah?

4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Prov. 16:4

Paul realized men do not believe its fair of God to do whatever he wills.

18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

How does he answer the "fairness" charge?

20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

By telling them it would not be fair to THE POTTER if he could not do whatever he chose with the clay that he molded!

Then he very specifically decrees that God made the wicked to demonstrate his power in their destruction:

22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

A humanistic worldview will indeed see this as God being in the wrong. But he counsels with no one concerning his purposes. He needs not the permission of the clay nor its approval.

He makes known the riches of his glory to the VESSELS OF MERCY WHICH HE HAD AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Perhaps "the nations" refers to those that from every nation that fear Him.....
Note there are parameters for being accepted with him......

If you read into Chapter 22, verse 15, there are sinners outside the gate, so sinners are still around. The Rev. 22:17 the Spirit and the bride are still calling all who thirst, all who desire, "Come!" Salvation is still in operation. This is after the Great White judgment, and after the New Jerusalem has appeared. This call shows the "Bride" participating in this call to salvation.

I don't believe it is a free entry, those that come at this time will be refined by the refiners fire, (Mal.3.3)

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

This verse is not future tense. It's present tense. The Spirit and the Bride is saying "come" right now!

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price

Oh, so you have now joined Bro. Blume?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Oh yeah?

4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Prov. 16:4

Paul realized men do not believe its fair of God to do whatever he wills.

18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

How does he answer the "fairness" charge?

20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

By telling them it would not be fair to THE POTTER if he could not do whatever he chose with the clay that he molded!

Then he very specifically decrees that God made the wicked to demonstrate his power in their destruction:

22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

A humanistic worldview will indeed see this as God being in the wrong. But he counsels with no one concerning his purposes. He needs not the permission of the clay nor its approval.

He makes known the riches of his glory to the VESSELS OF MERCY WHICH HE HAD AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY.

I totally reject the Calvinistic view of God's severity. Again these verses are temporal, and in no way project the ultimate end of God's creation. God most certainly directs the affairs of man for His purpose, and His ultimate purpose is to redeem His creation.

[crakjak]

Good night all. I will have to pick it up later, sleep and wife call.

[Thad]

Wow!!!!! I did not know that ANYONE on this forum believed in universal reconciliation!!

Does crakjak go to carlton Pearson's church ???


that's the junk he believes in The muslins are saved, the hindus saved, Buddah's all good, the homosexuals are going to heaven no problem AND even the Devil will be saved ! ! !

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I did take some on and remembe we've had this discussion indepth. However in the course of having a dialogue I have to point out the logical inconsistancies in your arguments. If what you believe is the truth then you don't need to embelish it or help it along. Do you want to win an argument for the sake of winning or do you want truth to be revealed?

Very well put.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Let's throw this in the mix, Rev.22.15 mentions the dogs and sorcerers, etc outside the city. Then in verse 17, "...the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who thirst come. Whoever desires, let him take of the water of life freely." So apparently, after all is said and done thru all the Revelation, the Spirit is still saying "Come!"

This doesn't seem to fit the eternally lost timeline, this is after the Great White Throne judgment, after the coming of the New Jerusalem. Why are those dogs not in the pit or the lake?

These are some of the things in scripture that caused me to study and has led to my current position.

CJ, what's your eschatological view?

In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com