Death:

[Michael The Disciple]

He only is immortal because we are yet subject to death and dying. He is already glorified. This has nothing to do with the afterlife.

What? If the dead were alive they would be immortal. That IS the point.

Not so. Here's why... Jesus has already entered the eternal glorified state. No one else has as of yet. Those who have passed on are in a state of death, not immortality.

Well yes thats the truth. The dead are dead.

[Michael The Disciple]

Old Testament was nothing by types and shadows. It wasn't a complete revelation. What Christ indicated is far more detailed, as expected, because He is God.

Also, the Pharisees, and most mainstream Jews, believed in the afterlife long before Christ's birth. Yet Jesus never rebukes them for such a false belief. Instead, Christ's lesson concerning Lazarus and the rich man, in addition to Christ promising the thief on the cross Paradise that very day, all indicate that He two proclaimed life after death.

Aquila,

There are also FOUNDATIONS in the OT like the teaching of one God. This works the same way.

You are SOOO right about before Christ their understanding of the afterlife was very small. The clearest teaching on it was concerning the resurrection in Dan. 12. It was kind of hidden in the midst of the scriptures.

Lets really explore that idea.

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began , 10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2 Tim.

Before the resurrection of Jesus life and immortality was obscured. It was not understood. The Old Testament never gives any teaching that people died and yet they were still alive in their "immortal soul". So people speculated. They borrowed teachings from the religons of their pagan neighbors.

But when Jesus came and ROSE FROM THE DEAD it was THEN that life and immortality CAME TO LIGHT!

Before then it was mere speculation.

So he brought life and immortality to light THROUGH THE GOSPEL!

This is so HUGE!

What is the gospel?

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received , and where in ye stand ; 2By which also ye are saved , if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor. 15:1-4

See the point? The gospel "good news" was that JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD! My friends the good news is the dead can live again! They can be made immortal!

That fact was never fully brought to life until then. And when this happened it was not about Yeshuas spirit or his soul going off to live in Heaven apart from his bodily presence.

When one speaks of the resurrection as the "bodily resurrection" thats the only kind there is. When Yeshuas body arose HE AROSE. He was rising again from the dead and thats what Paul called LIFE AND IMMORTALITY!

So to Yeshua, Paul and whoever represented him when they spoke of immortality it was never apart from the resurrection of the dead.

All the speculations that came before Christs resurrection were false. They were fictitious. The pagans always promoted the idea that once a man died his soul went into another life.

The Apostle Paul being led of Yeshua himself writes that men were in darkness concerning life and immortality until the RESURRECTION OF YESHUA from the dead.

If "immortal soul" were true IT would be the gospel! If we died and were suddenly in Heaven that certainly would be good news. But friends that IS NOT the good news taught by the Apostles.

Their gospel was that men could live again after they had been dead and Yeshua was the proof of it! His example was NOT that we die and straightway go to Heaven but that God raises people up from death.

So the gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news that HE WAS THE FIRST TO RISE AGAIN FROM THE DEAD.

And that if we obey the gospel WE ALSO will gain eternal life/immortality.

This entire chapter of 1 Cor. 15 is about what? THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

Why is that so crucial? Because there is no whole chapter of details concerning our immortal soul. No the gospel is about the RESURRECTION from the state of death. Thats why it is one of the foundation doctrines of Christianity and "immortal soul is not.

[Luke]

I would agree with Michael as to the fact that through Christ sinless perfection is both possible and commanded of Christians but I would agree with Aquila that soul sleep and annihalationism are both false doctrines.

[Luke]

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Very strong scriptures against the doctrine of either soul sleep or annilationism.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

But wouldn't death be just like sleep? The same way that if you were in a coma for years and woke up, you'll probably think that it was the same day. Or if you were sick and was sleep for 3 days and awoke you won't automatically know how long that you have been asleep. By the same token, when you die, and have been dead for thousands of years, and arise from the dead you won't know how long that you have been gone, but it'll feel like just a moment, as if you're in that same day.

This is what Jesus meant when He told the thief that he'll see him that day in paradise. Anyway, Jesus didn't even carry that body back up to heaven that same day himself.

There is more to you than just your body.

Paul spoke of being "absent from the body" and being "present with the Lord".

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

John speaks of souls of martyred believers before the throne in Heaven:

Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

On the Mount of Transfiguration Jesus was visited by both Moses and Elijah:

Mark 9:1-4
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

When Jonah decended into "hell" (the grave) he was conscious and was able to see the bottom of the ocean, oceanic mountains, etc... things no one would be able to see in the darkness of the ocean's depths... also things no one who was "asleep". It was an "out of body" experience...

Jonah 2:1-6
1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

If in death people merely "sleep" as in a "coma"... who did Jesus preach to upon decending into Hell???

1 Peter 3:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Jesus told the thief...

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, TO DAY shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I know your answer is "Awww... well... Jesus didn't literally mean that very day." A plain reading of Scripture would indicate that... He did. Even Stephen saw a vision of Christ at the time of his death... what did Stephen say...

Acts 7:58-60
King James Version (KJV)
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen prayed that his spirit be received by Jesus. That which departs from the body ("absent from the body" as Paul said) then becomes present with the Lord (as Paul said).

We have to think categorically. Man is body, soul, and spirit. The body "sleeps". It is "lifeless"... void of spirit. The soul/spirit of a man is "absent" (Paul's own words) from the body upon death... and is "present" (Paul's own words again) with the Lord.

So with regards to our physical being... the body sleeps, resting in the dust, awaiting resurrection. The soul/spirit leaves the body to be present with the Lord.

Denying this is absolutely rediculous. And, it only demonstrates the self centered identity crisis of a person who isn't sold out to Scripture.... but rather prides themselves on a heresy to maintain their individuality.

Surrender... just believe the Bible.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

What? If the dead were alive they would be immortal. That IS the point.

Immortality means... not being subject to death. The dead are in a state of death... not immortality.

Well yes thats the truth. The dead are dead.

And the "dead" are absent from the body and present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

[Aquila]

Those who have no faith and only rely upon that which they can see... life in the body... don't believe in a conscious reality that leaves the body to be present with the Lord upon death. Therefore, they embrace soul sleep doctrine. Sadly... this doctrine only focuses upon specific verses and specific interpretations of those verses and disregards all other verses to the contrary by saying, "Yes, that's what he said... but not what he meant."

They also fail to think categorically. While yes, the body sleeps, resting in the dust... the spirit/soul of a man is present with God. The brain experiences sleep... the soul experiences paradise. Therefore in one sense... my body would be sleeping... but my soul would be rejoicing in the Father's presence. Therefore... I could say that I slept... I could also say that I was present with God... all at the same time.

Paul wrote...

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If upon death, we are "asleep" or in a "coma" like state with nothing passing on into what many call "the afterlife"... in what sense are we "absent" from the body??? In what sense are we "present" with the Lord??? Advocates of soul sleep cannot give any meaningful answers to these questions.

[MarieA27]

So the people who advocate this Immortal soul doctrine, are you saying that our body is going to be in the dust, but our souls will be in heaven/hell? So what happens later on when people go through the White Throne Judgement and God judges people according to the deeds done in their body?

Is God going to then take those souls out of heaven/hell and place them back into their bodies, then judge them, then quicken and place their bodies along with their souls back into heaven/hell again, but only now with a body?

Do God judge everyone as soon as they die, and place them where ever they're to be in the afterlife? Then if he do, what's the point of the White Throne Judgement, if they are already placed into where they're to be as soon as they die?

[Aquila]

Marie, I don't have all the answers, but I can share what I think in accordance to what I've studied.

Originally Posted by MarieA27

So the people who advocate this Immortal soul doctrine, are you saying that our body is going to be in the dust, but our souls will be in heaven/hell?

Yes.

So what happens later on when people go through the White Throne Judgement and God judges people according to the deeds done in their body?

Is God going to then take those souls out of heaven/hell and place them back into their bodies, then judge them, then quicken and place their bodies along with their souls back into heaven/hell again, but only now with a body?

Do God judge everyone as soon as they die, and place them where ever they're to be in the afterlife? Then if he do, what's the point of the White Throne Judgement, if they are already placed into where they're to be as soon as they die?

When one is arrested they are arraignmened. They go before the court and charges are brought against them. Then they are often incarcerated until trial. At some future date they face trial and the case is decided.

When one dies, they are judged for the life they've lived. If saved, they enter into God's presence until the resurrection. If unsaved, they are confronted with their sin and unbelief. Then they are condemned to Hell where they await the resurrection and final judgment. After the resurrection, at the final judgment, their eternal fate is officially decided. The condemned are cast into the lake of fire. The resurrected saints of God enter the New Jerusalem.

The current state of Hell isn't the same thing as the eternal Hell better known as the Lake of Fire.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

When one is arrested they are arraignmened. They go before the court and charges are brought against them. Then they are often incarcerated until trial. At some future date they face trial and the case is decided.

When one dies, they are judged for the life they've lived. If saved, they enter into God's presence until the resurrection. If unsaved, they are confronted with their sin and unbelief. Then they are condemned to Hell where they await the resurrection and final judgment. After the resurrection, at the final judgment, their eternal fate is officially decided. The condemned are cast into the lake of fire. The resurrected saints of God enter the New Jerusalem.

The current state of Hell isn't the same thing as the eternal Hell better known as the Lake of Fire.

Very good point and well said.