Have We Been Trained NOT To Win Souls?

[tv1a]

Great point. I've been living this principle for about 5 years now. Instead of getting people saved, I mentor people to do what Jesus did. The most important things you can teach a person is Christ's views about prayer, fasting, and giving. One of the definitions of disciple is a disciplined person. The proper view of giving, prayer, fasting would open many doors for a person

Unfortunately many christians think indoctrination and discipleship mean the same thing.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Jesus commanded to go make disciples.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo , I am with you alway , even unto the end of the world. Matt 28:20

Pastors should be training disciples to do this. Take a lesson from Jehovahs Witnesses.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by tv1a

They had enough money to appoint a treasurer. The Bible mentions women of wealth who supported Jesus's ministry. Nicodemous and Joseph of Arimethea. The disciples were business owners, irs agents, accountants. The ministry operated like a business.
Jesus wasn't into bouncing checks.

Jesus never taught the carnal things in life. They left their businesses to follow Him.

You are going to have to biblically prove that Christ operated His ministry like our earthly businesses. You are going to have to prove that Christ, the High Priest from the tribe of Judah demanded the tithe for Himself.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Jesus never taught the carnal things in life. They left their businesses to follow Him.

You are going to have to biblically prove that Christ operated His ministry like our earthly businesses. You are going to have to prove that Christ, the High Priest from the tribe of Judah demanded the tithe for Himself.

Good point! The only time Yeshua asked for money was when he told Peter to go get it out of a fishes mouth. He accepted offerings but apparently never asked for them. Rather he lived by faith in his Heavenly Father who takes care of the fowls of the air.

[tv1a]

The Bible says there were influential women who ministered to the needs of Jesus and the disciples. Jesus had enough money coming in he assigned someone to keep track of the money. Remember when Christ sent the disciples to Samaria to purchase food? There were influential people who funded Christ's ministrty. Jesus had to know how to be responsible with finances. Run the ministry like a business is logical. It's very difficult for a church to be effective if they are poor stewards of God's money.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Good point! The only time Yeshua asked for money was when he told Peter to go get it out of a fishes mouth. He accepted offerings but apparently never asked for them. Rather he lived by faith in his Heavenly Father who takes care of the fowls of the air.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by tv1a

Jesus had to know how to be responsible with finances. Run the ministry like a business is logical. It's very difficult for a church to be effective if they are poor stewards of God's money.

It may be logical but you cannot prove it to be Biblical. Jesus' ministry defied logic such as how he fed the 5,000 on such few fish and loaves of bread.

Give us scripture of who these "influential" women were and give us scripture who these influential people were that funded Jesus's ministry. I'm sure people gave him freewill offerings so that he could get on ships to cross the waters.

Let me tell you my logic. My logic is that if Jesus had to have money to fund the ministry He had, then that would have put the faith into the money and not in God providing food and shelter for Christ and the disciples. Christ did many many miracles and tried to show people that our faith should be in the Father...consider the lilies...

Did He not tell the disciples to take nothing when he sent them into the cities?

And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.

(Luke 9:3)

And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

(John 2:15)

I know that Judas carried the money bag, but Jesus did not talk about fund raising or mammon except to say that you cannot serve two masters. He considered mammon to be a "master" to those who continually ask or bully other people for it. I suppose the love of money would control one's life and one could be a slave to it.

There is no scriptural account of the "offering" basket passed among the crowd. There is no scriptural account of Christ even asking for money.

If you read the history of the church, you will find that today's church is not even remotely the same as the early church.

I highly doubt that Jesus held business meetings, passed the basket for money, and ran His ministry like today's ministry. He put no emphasis on buildings, often preached out in the open.

However, the Pharisees, High Priests and Saducees ran their authority on money. Christ was trying to show us that our Father in Heaven supplies all our needs and He certainly lived by example.

[tv1a]

My original statement was Christ treated the ministry like a business. You are reading too much into that statement. There were wealthy people who funded his ministry.

Luke 8:1-3
8:1 After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The twelve were with him,

2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out;

3 Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means. NIV

The scripture says you cannot serve God if you are a slave to money. That doesn't mean a person's success and wealth comes about because of compromising his relationship with Christ.

The rich young ruler's heart was in his riches. Jesus was exposing what was in his heart. If Christ wanted his disciples to be paupers, why didn't he tell Nicodemus to sell what he had and give it to the poor? Nicodemus had the right mindset about money. Eternal life for Nicodemus was to be born again. Eternal life for the rich young ruler was to get rid of the riches. It's all the matter of the heart. Nicodemus didn't let money rule him.

The money changers and the priests were ruled by money.Their lack of ethics
adversely affected the church.

While Jesus did a couple great miracles with a few fish and a few loaves of bread, for the most part Jesus sent people home at the end of the day. It wasn't part of the everyday norm for Jesus to be the source of the fish fry. He did it a couple time to show people His authority.

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

It may be logical but you cannot prove it to be Biblical. Jesus' ministry defied logic such as how he fed the 5,000 on such few fish and loaves of bread.

Give us scripture of who these "influential" women were and give us scripture who these influential people were that funded Jesus's ministry. I'm sure people gave him freewill offerings so that he could get on ships to cross the waters.

Let me tell you my logic. My logic is that if Jesus had to have money to fund the ministry He had, then that would have put the faith into the money and not in God providing food and shelter for Christ and the disciples. Christ did many many miracles and tried to show people that our faith should be in the Father...consider the lilies...

Did He not tell the disciples to take nothing when he sent them into the cities?

And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.

(Luke 9:3)

And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

(John 2:15)

I know that Judas carried the money bag, but Jesus did not talk about fund raising or mammon except to say that you cannot serve two masters. He considered mammon to be a "master" to those who continually ask or bully other people for it. I suppose the love of money would control one's life and one could be a slave to it.

There is no scriptural account of the "offering" basket passed among the crowd. There is no scriptural account of Christ even asking for money.

If you read the history of the church, you will find that today's church is not even remotely the same as the early church.

I highly doubt that Jesus held business meetings, passed the basket for money, and ran His ministry like today's ministry. He put no emphasis on buildings, often preached out in the open.

However, the Pharisees, High Priests and Saducees ran their authority on money. Christ was trying to show us that our Father in Heaven supplies all our needs and He certainly lived by example.

[bbyrd009]

Um, Jehovah's Witnesses, really?
Yikes.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by tv1a

My original statement was Christ treated the ministry like a business. You are reading too much into that statement. There were wealthy people who funded his ministry.

I have found on these forums that if I make a statement, I have to prove it scripturally. This is one statement that you made that you cannot scripturally prove. People willingly gave to Christ because they were blessed by the love of God to do so. It doesn't mean Christ treated his ministry like a merchant treats his business. Often, more than not in this day and age, we see church ministries treat their ministry like it is a carnal business with business meetings, books, records, salaries etc.

Originally Posted by tv1a

The scripture says you cannot serve God if you are a slave to money. That doesn't mean a person's success and wealth comes about because of compromising his relationship with Christ.

Actually, the scripture says you cannot serve God and mammon. Mammon is not just money, it is the money system. It is the love of money that is causing many to hate the Christian followings, not Christ. The prosperity doctrine is one of the worst things that have happened to Christians. When Christ said to "follow me" what do you think He meant? He said nothing about building large buildings, having mortgages, padded pews or one preacher to rule over the congregants. He simply said to go out into the world and preach the gospel. Did Christ set up shop anywhere? No. He went out to the lost sheep of Israel. He did not sit in the temple waiting for people to enter into his presence. Yet, he had throngs of people following Him when he moved about.

Originally Posted by tv1a

The rich young ruler's heart was in his riches. Jesus was exposing what was in his heart. If Christ wanted his disciples to be paupers, why didn't he tell Nicodemus to sell what he had and give it to the poor? Nicodemus had the right mindset about money. Eternal life for Nicodemus was to be born again. Eternal life for the rich young ruler was to get rid of the riches. It's all the matter of the heart. Nicodemus didn't let money rule him.

I agree it is a matter of the heart.

The Bible does not say that Nicodemus was rich. It does say that he was a ruler of Jews so you probably can assume he was rich.

But, you forget that the rich young ruler asked Christ the question..."What must I do to inherit eternal life"?

The difference here between Nicodemus and the rich young ruler is that Nicodemus believed the works that Christ did and believed he was the Messiah. The rich young ruler did not have a clue. He had to go and ask Jesus what must he do to inherit eternal life. Christ told him and it was already the law he was brought
up to follow. Jesus added the other requirement to see what he would do.

Originally Posted by tv1a

The money changers and the priests were ruled by money.Their lack of ethics adversely affected the church.

And don't you think that churches today with their begging, bullying, harping and demanding 10%+ of your money doesn't affect the ministry today? Especially when some of the ministers live much higher than their congregants. Most people would not be upset if the pastor lived modest. But when some of them have new autos every 2-3 years, a vacation home, a lake home, land and other wealth while their congregants just get by...that is unacceptable. Then they pass the church down to their children like it is a business. Paul said that we are to have equality and to share. He did not say that those poorer than the richer should give. He said nothing about tithing either. Why? Because Paul recognized that the priesthood had changed and that tithing went to the Levitical storehouse. Paul recognized that Christ told the disciples that men were not to rule over each other, but to be brethren.

Originally Posted by tv1a

While Jesus did a couple great miracles with a few fish and a few loaves of bread, for the most part Jesus sent people home at the end of the day. It wasn't part of the everyday norm for Jesus to be the source of the fish fry. He did it a couple time to show people His authority.

But...Jesus gave to the people. He did not take from them and send them home . He had compassion on them lest they faint. He fed them both with substance and with the bread of heaven.

[tv1a]

First of all you read way too much into what I said. I said Jesus treated ministry like a business. I didn't suggest Christ strong armed or coerced people into giving.

What makes you think Jesus didn't have business meetings?

It takes money to feed the poor. It takes money to print tracts, advertise church events. It takes money to pay the electric bill. How do you pay for the pews you sit on? Solomon says money answers all things. There is nothing wrong with business meetings, books, records and salaries. Business meetings and accurate bookkeeping shows accountability in the funds Christ has entrusted you with.

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I have found on these forums that if I make a statement, I have to prove it scripturally. This is one statement that you made that you cannot scripturally prove. People willingly gave to Christ because they were blessed by the love of God to do so. It doesn't mean Christ treated his ministry like a merchant treats his business. Often, more than not in this day and age, we see church ministries treat their ministry like it is a carnal business with business meetings, books, records, salaries etc.



Actually, the scripture says you cannot serve God and mammon. Mammon is not just money, it is the money system. It is the love of money that is causing many to hate the Christian followings, not Christ. The prosperity doctrine is one of the worst things that have happened to Christians. When Christ said to "follow me" what do you think He meant? He said nothing about building large buildings, having mortgages, padded pews or one preacher to rule over the congregants. He simply said to go out into the world and preach the gospel. Did Christ set up shop anywhere? No. He went out to the lost sheep of Israel. He did not sit in the temple waiting for people to enter into his presence. Yet, he had throngs of people following Him when he moved about.



I agree it is a matter of the heart.

The Bible does not say that Nicodemus was rich. It does say that he was a ruler of Jews so you probably can assume he was rich.

But, you forget that the rich young ruler asked Christ the question..."What must I do to inherit eternal life"?

The difference here between Nicodemus and the rich young ruler is that Nicodemus believed the works that Christ did and believed he was the Messiah. The rich young ruler did not have a clue. He had to go and ask Jesus what must he do to inherit eternal life. Christ told him and it was already the law he was brought
up to follow. Jesus added the other requirement to see what he would do.




And don't you think that churches today with their begging, bullying, harping and demanding 10%+ of your money doesn't affect the ministry today? Especially when some of the ministers live much higher than their congregants. Most people would not be upset if the pastor lived modest. But when some of them have new autos every 2-3 years, a vacation home, a lake home, land and other wealth while their congregants just get by...that is unacceptable. Then they pass the church down to their children like it is a business. Paul said that we are to have equality and to share. He did not say that those poorer than the richer should give. He said nothing about tithing either. Why? Because Paul recognized that the priesthood had changed and that tithing went to the Levitical storehouse. Paul recognized that Christ told the disciples that men were not to rule over each other, but to be brethren.



But...Jesus gave to the people. He did not take from them and send them home . He had compassion on them lest they faint. He fed them both with substance and with the bread of heaven.

[tv1a]

AYR, The idea is preposterous saying the church shouldn't run like a business. It takes money to survive. That's not taking away from the miraculous power of God. It just a lot of time we can see God's miracle through finances.

If your premises is the church not worry about money and rely only on God, I would expect the church would stop selling peanut brittle and Easter candy on the holidays. Just a thought. The church shouldn't be thinking about money. It cost money for the fuel for the bus. Insurance for the drivers. Just as Christ was running His Father's business, we have the same responsibility.

Here is the key to running the Father's business, seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness will open up everything you need. If you understood what the Kingdom of God is about and what righteousness is about, you wouldn't have a problem with ministry operated as a business.

Back to the rich young ruler, money was his God. Did Jesus tell Zacchaous he had to sell everything and give it the poor? Zaccheous volunteer to pay the people he cheated back with interest. Jesus didn't tell Z-man that's not good enough, get rid of it all.