The poor in America

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by coadie

It is ok if you don't have a reference to share to back up your example and question.

I was asking for the precentage and explaining that I wanted to know it because saying majority and minority doesn't mean much if there is only a 2% increase.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Context helps in those verses. At least one of those verses you referenced was to a specific situation (1 Thes) where Paul's emphasis on the imminent return of Christ caused people to lose all control, quit their jobs, ignore their families, leave trash in the streets, etc... Paul corrects this in his second letter (2 Thes) with more of a "work like he's not coming for 1,000 years, live like he's coming today" speech.

The other verse you reference is from Paul's letter to Timothy, dealing with widows.

I have close to 100 other verses that deal with the taking care of the poor, including entire systems of OT government set-up to do just that -- and judgment when that did not happen.

I think you are trying to minimize these scriptures.

2Th:3:6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th:3:7: For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2Th:3:8: Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
2Th:3:9: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
2Th:3:10: For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th:3:11: For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
2Th:3:12: Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
2Th:3:13: But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
2Th:3:14: And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

and

1Tm:5:1: Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
1Tm:5:2: The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.
1Tm:5:3: Honour widows that are widows indeed.
1Tm:5:4: But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
1Tm:5:5: Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
1Tm:5:6: But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
1Tm:5:7: And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
1Tm:5:8: But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
1Tm:5:9: Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
1Tm:5:10: Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

In context they read just as they do when they stand alone.

[Socialite]

And I think you are trying to minimize, ignore or otherwise explain away these verses:


Deut. 26:5-9. The Egyptians treated us harshly and afflicted us, and imposed hard labor on us. Then we cried to the LORD, the God of our fathers, and the LORD heard our voice and saw our affliction and our toil and our oppression; and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with great terror and with signs and wonders; and He has brought us to... this land flowing with milk and honey.

Luke 4:16-21. And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read... "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He appointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are downtrodden, to proclaim the favorable year of the LORD... Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

Ps. 140:12. I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and justice for the poor.

Is. 25:4. For You have been a defense for the helpless, a defense for the needy in his distress.

Ps. 10:14. The unfortunate commits himself to You; You have been the helper of the orphan... O LORD, You have heard the desire of the humble; You will strengthen their heart, You will incline Your ear to vindicate the orphan and the oppressed.

Is 41:17. The afflicted and needy are seeking water, but there is none, and their tongue is parched with thirst. I, the LORD, will answer them Myself, as the God of Israel I will not forsake them.

Luke 6:20-21. Blessed are you who are poor, for yours in the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you shall be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

James 2:5. Did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.

Deut. 26:12. When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied.

Lev. 19:19ff. Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.

Prov. 31:8ff. [Commandment to kings.] Open your mouth for the dumb, for the rights of all the unfortunate. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.

Is. 58:66ff. Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

Luke 12:33. "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys."

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

Mt. 5:42. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
Prov. 22:9 He who is generous will be blessed, for he gives some of his food to the poor.

Jer. 22:16 "Did not your father eat and drink, and do justice and righteousness? Then it was well with him. He pled the cause of the afflicted and needy; then it was well. Is that not what it means to know Me?" declares the LORD.

Deut. 15:10. You shall give generously to [your poor brother], and your heart shall not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in all your undertakings.

Prov. 19:17. He who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, and He will repay him for his good deed.

Jer. 7:5-7. "For, if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever."

Is. 58:10. "And if you give yourself to the hungry, and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then your light will rise in darkness, and your gloom will become like midday. And the LORD will continually guide you, and satisfy your desire in scorched places, and give strength to your bones; and you will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water whose waters do not fail."

Luke 14:12-14. "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and repayment come to you. But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Luke 12:44. "Sell your possessions and give alms; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Mt. 19:20ff. The young man said to Him, "All these commands I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Ezek. 16:49ff. "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it."

Is. 10:1-3. "Woe to those who enact evil statutes, and to those who continually record unjust decisions, so as to deprive the needy of justice, and rob the poor of My people of their rights... Now what will you do in the day of punishment, and in the devastation which will come from afar?"

Luke 1:52ff. [Mary's Magnificat.] "He has brought down rulers from their thrones, and has exalted those who were hungry. He has filled the hungry with good things; and sent away the rich empty-handed."

Ezek. 22:29,31. "The people of the land have practiced oppression and committed robbery, and they have wronged the poor and needy and have oppressed the sojourner without justice... Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads," declares the Lord GOD.

Jer. 5:28f. "[The wicked] do not plead the cause, the cause of the orphan, that they may prosper; and they do not defend the rights of the poor. Shall I not punish these people?" declares the LORD. "On such a nation as this, shall I not avenge myself?"

James 5:1-6. Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. ...Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and with you have withheld, cries out against you; and the outcry of the harvesters has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.

Luke 6:24. "But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full."

Luke 16:19-25. "Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs would come and lick his sores.
Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.'
But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony...'"

Prov. 29:7. The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern.

1 John 3:17. But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

Luke 6:33ff. "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, in order to receive back the same."

2 Cor 9:7. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

Mt. 6:2-4. "When therefore you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you."

[Socialite]

And these ones...


Mt. 6:24. "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Money."

1 Tim. 6:10. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang.

Gal. 2:9ff. Recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John... gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we might go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. They only asked us to remember the poor-- the very thing I also was eager to do.

Lev. 19:15. "You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly."

Acts 2:44. All those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; and they began to sell their property and possessions, and share them with all, as anyone might have need.

Acts 4:32-35. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles' feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need.

Eph. 4:28. Let him who steals steal no longer; but rather let him labor, performing with his own hands what is good, in order that he may have something to share with him who has need.

2 Cor. 8:9. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

Prov. 19:17. He who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, and He will repay him for his good deed.

Prov. 14:31. He who oppresses the poor reproaches his Maker, but he who is gracious to the needy honors Him.

Mt. 25:31-46.

[Socialite]

In fact, there are over 300 verses concerning God's attitude, our response and judgment toward the poor. Should I post them all??

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I think you are trying to minimize these scriptures.

2Th:3:6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th:3:7: For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2Th:3:8: Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
2Th:3:9: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
2Th:3:10: For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th:3:11: For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
2Th:3:12: Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
2Th:3:13: But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
2Th:3:14: And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

and

1Tm:5:1: Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
1Tm:5:2: The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.
1Tm:5:3: Honour widows that are widows indeed.
1Tm:5:4: But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
1Tm:5:5: Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
1Tm:5:6: But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
1Tm:5:7: And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
1Tm:5:8: But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
1Tm:5:9: Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
1Tm:5:10: Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

In context they read just as they do when they stand alone.

Actually, I didn't minimize them, I provided the historical context... it's called exegesis. You have to know a little of the problem Paul is addressing to understand what appears to be a prescriptive word. Otherwise, you join the ranks of the spiritually ignorant that call men who lose their jobs sinners (just one example of how damaging poor exegesis is). Truthfully, though Biblical historians have helped us piece together what may have been going on in Thessalonica, we really don't know for certainty.

And the context of 1 Timothy is most certainly concerning widows. Read it again. Irresponsible widows perhaps? Either way, our sense of God's grace comes out in our work, and we can view work in such a way as fulfilling God's goodness through us, so there are no advocates that people should not work (who are able). The disabilities for some are mental, emotional and, of course, physical.

"Break my heart for what breaks yours..."

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Actually, I didn't minimize them, I provided the historical context... it's called exegesis. You have to know a little of the problem Paul is addressing to understand what appears to be a prescriptive word. Otherwise, you join the ranks of the spiritually ignorant that call men who lose their jobs sinners (just one example of how damaging poor exegesis is). Truthfully, though Biblical historians have helped us piece together what may have been going on in Thessalonica, we really don't know for certainty.

And the context of 1 Timothy is most certainly concerning widows. Read it again. Irresponsible widows perhaps? Either way, our sense of God's grace comes out in our work, and we can view work in such a way as fulfilling God's goodness through us, so there are no advocates that people should not work (who are able). The disabilities for some are mental, emotional and, of course, physical.

"Break my heart for what breaks yours..."

Some commentary on 1 Tim 5 from IVP:

From the time of Israel's inception, God has been known as the defender of widows (Deut 10:18; 24:17). "Justice" among God's people was measured in part by the treatment of widows (Is 1:17). God's compassion for the widow became the covenant community's responsibility, which the early church naturally took up (Acts 6:1; Jas 1:27).

The present passage is the Bible's most extensive treatment of the subject. Through instructions to Timothy, Paul addresses the issue of community support for widows. At the same time, the widow is encouraged to make positive contributions to the church's ministry.

The passage reflects a fairly advanced system of care--a "roll" or "list" of widows eligible for support (v. 9). But the system was being abused; families of widows were not shouldering their responsibility, thus placing financial strain on the church. Then certain younger widows, who may have managed to get on the list, were threatening the church's reputation by involvement with the false teaching and scandalous behavior. The instructions address three related topics: the identification of the honorable widow, family responsibility for widows, young widows.

This shows that there was a common system in place for the care of widows. That system was being abused. Families weren't caring for widows. Younger widows were abusing the system. There seemed to be a pretty big mess here that Paul was trying to help. That's pretty good context in how to eavesdrop into this letter.

[aegsm76]

I believe we have ventured very far afield from the original point.
I believe there are almost zero "poor" in America.
Poor in the context which the Bible uses.
Poor as in "starving".
The stats in my original post show this.

Do you believe this or not?

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I believe we have ventured very far afield from the original point.
I believe there are almost zero "poor" in America.
Poor in the context which the Bible uses.
Poor as in "starving".
The stats in my original post show this.

Do you believe this or not?

Indeed, but conversations aren't always linear

And no, I do not believe that statement, nor do the stats matter. Did you read what I posted concerning the Keller interview just this week? Poverty is relative. Poverty is also multi-dimensional, and means far more than just people who can't afford the basic necessities like food and shelter.

Those stats are part and parcel to the problem of the worldiness of the American Dream. It's Social Darwinism at best... if you aren't succeeding, you aren't trying hard enough. I have a home, two cars, a couple vacations a year, nice gadgets and toys but my conscience can rest because the guy on the other side of town that has no money for dinner, the woman who feels hopeless and the little boy who wonders when the cycle will end -- they aren't poor per that stat, so I can kick my legs up, feel good about myself and just tell them to "get with it" and "work harder."

Like the question asked to Jesus: "Who is my neighbor?"

[aegsm76]

It's very unusual for a thread to deviate from the original post.
The problem that I have with Keller is that whenever you remove statistics and measurements from anything, then it becomes all about feeling.
So, you can call anyone poor, it just depends on your "feeling".


Do you know what the number 1 predictor is for a "poor" household?
The lack of a father.
Again, bad choices.
Also to redefine "poor" as a lack of power, encourages the wrong type of mentality.
It encourages a victim mentality instead of a mentality that I can change my life with better choices.
As one who was raised up "poor", (by the governments definition), I can state that is what I believe.