A ? about messianic jews.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by houston

I cant find a pic of the "mask" that I am referencing. It was one head with three faces, a representation of modalism.

like this?

[houston]

Originally Posted by Sam

like this?

Yes, but it was more "greek" in appearance.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by houston

Yes, but it was more "greek" in appearance.

the pictures of the trinity/godhead are about as inspiring as our arguments among ourselves on the trinity/godhead.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Sam

the pictures of the trinity/godhead are about as inspiring as our arguments among ourselves on the trinity/godhead.

Love the Lego's. LOL. A head with three faces is accurate of modalism, IMO. Now, three heads would accurately represent the triinity per our (mis)characterizations of the doctrine of the trinity. I remember discussing the oneness/trinity issue with a classmate in h.s. His grandfather was a pastor of a trinitarian pentecostal church. Joe says to me "...some people think that we believe in a three headed God. We don't... we believe in one God." *shrugs* Maybe in the end, it's all semantics.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by houston

... Maybe in the end, it's all semantics.

I think so

[A.W. Bowman]

I realize that all of this can be challenging to many on this forum. What is presented from the pulpit of a great many Oneness churches, however, is more in line with modern religious rhetoric than with historical facts.

As a final note on the Jewish view of God, and why the 'trin' view is not so foreign to them, especially to Messianic Jews:

Jewish literature is not totally silent on the mystery of God's plurality. It should be mentioned that this literature sometimes reflects the reality of god's plurality. The Zohar mentions that the Ancient One is revealed in three heads "which are united into one"... "described as being three" ... "But how can three names be one"... (This) can only be known by revelation of the Holy Spirit". Zohar, Vol III p.288. Vol. XI: p.43).

As quoted in The Jewish Roots, A Foundation of Biblical Theology, by Dan Juster, Destiny Image Publisher, Inc, 2000, Shippersburg, PA, p.188.

May your own studies be fruitful.


Added note:

This also brings into question the often asserted assumption that "early "Christians got the idea of a plural god from the pagans, rather than from their Hebrew roots. (Remember, we have very few surviving Messianic manuscripts from from this period.) It also adds some support to the arguments Paul could have used in teaching Jesus as the Messiah from scripture, such as using language of the Shama. Without knowing the history, religion, cultural context and language of the scriptures and its writers, we tend to miss out on a lot of good stuff. And, might even pick up some faulty ideas.

James 3:1 (KJV)
My brethren, be not many masters [teachers], knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation .

1Tim 1:7-8 (KJV)
Desiring to be teachers of the law [Torah]; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law [Torah] is good, if a man use it lawfully; ...

[A.W. Bowman]

Additional information concerning Dr. Juster and his ministries may be found at:
Tikkun Ministries

[mfblume]

Just some remarks about the issue of ZOHAR, the book of Kabbalah that people need to know since it was referenced here recently. The Zohar is the Kabbalist writings that speak of God in very occultic type terms. It portrays nine emanations of God involving pics of baphomet, where Shekinah is actually a homosexual deity and alleged to be another emanation of God.

I see trinitarian mindset entering into the christian world with roots in Babylon when Israel was bound there, where they mingled Babylonian pagan thought into the Jewish mentality and came up with Kabbalah. Kabbalah has to be one of the most vile and intrinsically evil movements this world has seen. It brought mysticism and witchcraft into Judaism. The Zohar is "THE BOOK" for mysticism of the Kabbalah. I shudder when I read references to Zohar.

Zohar speaks of Lilith, Adam's alleged first wife, who is a kind of epitome of evil in Kabbalistic teachings.

Zohar
References to Lilith in the Zohar include the following:

“She wanders about at night, vexing the sons of men and causing them to defile themselves (19b),”

This passage may be related to the mention of Lilith in Talmud Shabbath 151b (see above), and also to Talmud Eruvin 18b where nocturnal emissions are connected with the begettal of demons.

Raphael Patai states that older sources state clearly that after Lilith's Red Sea sojourn (mentioned also in Louis Ginzberg's Legends of the Jews), she returned to Adam and begat children from him. In the Zohar, however, Lilith is said to have succeeded in begetting offspring from Adam during their short-lived sexual experience. Lilith leaves Adam in Eden, as she is not a suitable helpmate for him. She returns, later, to force herself upon him. However, before doing so she attaches herself to Cain and bears him numerous spirits and demons.[99]

According to Gershom Scholem, the author of the Zohar, Rabbi Moses de Leon, was aware of the folk tradition of Lilith. He was also aware of another story, possibly older, that may be conflicting.[100] According to the Zohar, two female spirits, Lilith and Naamah — found Adam, desired his beauty which was like that of the sun disk, and lay with him. The issue of these unions were demons and spirits called "the plagues of humankind".[99] The added explanation was that it was through Adam's own sin that Lilith overcame him against his will.


Kabbalah

Kabbalistic mysticism attempted to establish a more exact relationship between Lilith and the Deity. With her major characteristics having been well-developed by the end of the Talmudic period, after six centuries had elapsed between the Aramaic incantation texts that mention Lilith and the early Spanish Kabbalistic writings in the 13th century, she reappears, and her life history becomes known in greater mythological detail.[89]

Her creation is described in many alternative versions. One mentions her creation as being before Adam's, on the fifth day, because the "living creatures" with whose swarms God filled the waters included none other than Lilith. A similar version, related to the earlier Talmudic passages, recounts how Lilith was fashioned with the same substance as Adam was, shortly before. A third alternative version states that God originally created Adam and Lilith in a manner that the female creature was contained in the male. Lilith's soul was lodged in the depths of the Great Abyss. When God called her, she joined Adam. After Adam's body was created a thousand souls from the Left (evil) side attempted to attach themselves to him. However, God drove them off. Adam was left lying as a body without a soul. Then a cloud descended and God commanded the earth to produce a living soul. This God breathed into Adam, who began to spring to life and his female was attached to his side. God separated the female from Adam's side. The female side was Lilith, whereupon she flew to the Cities of the Sea and attacks humankind. Yet another version claims that Lilith was not created by God, but emerged as a divine entity that was born spontaneously, either out of the Great Supernal Abyss or out of the power of an aspect of God (the Gevurah of Din). This aspect of God, one of his ten attributes (Sefirot), at its lowest manifestation has an affinity with the realm of evil and it is out of this that Lilith merged with Samael.[90] According to The Alphabet of Ben-Sira Lilith was Adam's first wife.

An alternative story links Lilith with the creation of luminaries. The "first light," which is the light of Mercy (one of the Sefirot), appeared on the first day of creation when God said "Let there be light." This light became hidden and the Holiness became surrounded by a husk of evil. ”A husk (klippa) was created around the brain" and this husk spread and brought out another husk, which was Lilith.[91]

Kabbalah does the sort of antics like placing pentagrams on the scrolls of the Pentateuch (First five books of the Old Testament) in order to get secret hidden spiritual messages from God due to where the five points of the star land on the scrolls, etc.

It promotes nine emanations of God in a "Tree of Life" with the Shekinah, the homosexual emanation of God, as the bottom "trunk" of the tree.



Benny Hinn came under fire for promoting NINE in the Godhead, since he said each of the three persons of the Trinity have a spirit, soul and body, making NINE in the Godhead. Sounded a lot like Kabbalah's claims of the Tree of Life's NINE emanatioons of God.

I am amazed anyone would refer to the Zohar in any manner in which to promote God's nature. Orthodox Judaism thinks it an insult to analyze God's nature as though as to put Him beneath a microscope, which is the reason Judaism does not touch such issues, aside from His absolute oneness, which is why orthodox Judaism disdains trinitarian concepts with a passion. I would imagine they disdain the emphassis some Oneness people put into analyzing God's natute as well.

FOLKS, STAY AWAY FROM THE ZOHAR! It has nothing of any pure value in its pages.

Notice in Sam's post #33 the similarity between the trinity emblems and the Kabbalah tree of life.



Orthodox Jews would run as far from Kabbalah as they could. I do not think there is any validity whatsoever to anything kabbalah and the Zohar teaches. It's as wicked as the devil, himself, IMHO.

Kabbalah is the mystical teachings of Judaism. Kabbala has to three categories 1) Theoretical 2) Mystical (Energies which humans can’t connect to) 3) Magical (how to manipulate nature).

Kabbalah is a set of scriptures that exist outside the traditional Jewish Scriptures.

Dualism: Although Kabbalah propounds the Unity of God, one of the most serious and sustained criticisms is that it may lead away from monotheism, and instead promote dualism, the belief that there is a supernatural counterpart to God.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by houston

I cant find a pic of the "mask" that I am referencing. It was one head with three faces, a representation of modalism.

But modalism is not actually a mask with three faces on the head. It is one face, as I understand it. The "three" is simply in the modes God does. He remains one person with one face in my estimation throughout my years as a monarchian modalist.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

As a final note on the Jewish view of God, and why the 'trin' view is not so foreign to them, especially to Messianic Jews:

Jewish literature is not totally silent on the mystery of God's plurality. It should be mentioned that this literature sometimes reflects the reality of god's plurality. The Zohar mentions that the Ancient One is revealed in three heads "which are united into one"... "described as being three" ... "But how can three names be one"... (This) can only be known by revelation of the Holy Spirit". Zohar, Vol III p.288. Vol. XI: p.43).

Do many messianic Jews consult the Zohar, HaShaliach? Exactly what place does the Zohar have amongst Messianic Jews?