The Role of a New Testament Prophet

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Then you are not reading the same bible I am
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

As I said we don't know the meaning of the gifts. I will take the bible definition. Like I said those that rebuke, and warn may also be word of wisdom, or word of Knowledge.

Bottom line when we lift up a person and call them a prophet, pastor, apostle, etc we are lifting up man instead of the gift, and taking the focus off of God.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

What do we do with those in the Early Church that were prophets, apostles, evangelists, teachers, elders (pastors)?

[Godsdrummer]

=stephenroehm;985592]It concerns me that you are not willing to accept Biblical examples to broaden your knowledge.

Hmm
Sorry you seem to misunderstand what I am trying to get accross, I accepted what I was told were bible examples of those things your refering to for too many years without thinking for myself. When I began to think for myself and ask God to show me as apposed to what man told me is when I began to see things in a different light. Trust me I did not come to these ideas over night. And I sounded many thoughts over the years off of minister friends.

I am absolutely not saying that I know more than anyone else here, because if I did, I would instantly make myself a fool. Nor will I toss around the amount of experience I have in church or the time I have spent studying the Word as a way to prove my point, as it is irrelevant.

As for tossing around the amount of experiance, again you miss the point, I know I have a hard time getting what I am thinking accross into words but this is realy getting bad LOL

I don't have all the answers but I do have more than what most commonly accept as I have been exposed to more of the gifts of the spirit in the last three years than I did in 40+ years in UPCI. So I have made a point to study this in more detail.

I assume this is the statement refered to, or maybe it was the other one where is tell Sam of the time in minsitry neither being made to prove a point, But there must be something that experiance brings to the table.

God chooses to give wisdom to those who seek it, regardless of age or position or title. But one thing I do know is that as soon as we stop allowing ourselves to be open-minded to knowledge and revelation and as soon as we stop seeking those things with our whole hearts, we stop growing. The only "expert" on the Word of God is God.

You think I am not open minded? I would not have the ideas I have if not open minded. The difference is I quit beleiving everything said by some one claiming to be the voice of God. And got into the word in prayer.

The definitions of the words as well as the way those words were used in context in the Bible must agree, otherwise it's simply our understanding that is in err. How can the Bible inspire faith if it doesn't agree with itself? Could it be that prophecy is the gift that the LORD gives to His body and that one who possesses that gift is referred to as a prophet? Not necessarily as an "office of authority", but as a way to identify who possesses the gift? I am thinking of this in the same sense that a person who has the gift of athleticism to play the sport of basketball would be called a basketball player.

I can agree with underlined statement, I do, if you can agree with the bible definition of a prophet as opposed to mans definition.

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Again the use of title prophet has been misrepresented as only one that fortels future events. We are too quick to take the first definition of something as a blanket meaning. To prophecy also means to speak under insparation. Like I said much like our present day preacher.

By the way I am and never intend to come accross as knowing it all but to simply put forth different opinions to get others to check what they have always been told. My views do and can change.

Oh by the way, my referance to experiance? That is one to show how long I was in a rut of not listening to God but accepting what was told me from good meaning preachers etc. As for that I further do not feel any of my views one way or the other are salvational.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

What do we do with those in the Early Church that were prophets, apostles, evangelists, teachers, elders (pastors)?

If I recall none with the exeption of Paul refered to themselves as .... and Paul only refered in the way to say he was sent to the Gentiles. As apostle "means one that is sent" I futher see them not as offices as spiritual gifts that worked with in the body. With the exception of Bishops, elders, and decons, and those were ordained within the body to fulfill administrative fuctions as the body grew.

But that is just my opinion.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

If I recall none with the exeption of Paul refered to themselves as .... and Paul only refered in the way to say he was sent to the Gentiles. As apostle "means one that is sent" I futher see them not as offices as spiritual gifts that worked with in the body. With the exception of Bishops, elders, and decons, and those were ordained within the body to fulfill administrative fuctions as the body grew.

But that is just my opinion.

Actually there are multiple passages references other apostles and prophets, Paul talks about evangelists, and the whole of Eph 4:11 wholly addresses this as being God's "gift to the Church."

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Actually there are multiple passages references other apostles and prophets, Paul talks about evangelists, and the whole of Eph 4:11 wholly addresses this as being God's "gift to the Church."

can you find a nt passage describing the office of the prophet, like it does for elders, deacons and bishops?

i would also refer you back to hebrews 11:1-2
after looking at this i dont agree with our stance on a 5 fold ministry

but yes we have evangelist, like phillip, we had elders like steven, and we had apostles, which is translated as being sent, or messenger

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by acerrak

can you find a nt passage describing the office of the prophet, like it does for elders, deacons and bishops?

i would also refer you back to hebrews 11:1-2
after looking at this i dont agree with our stance on a 5 fold ministry

but yes we have evangelist, like phillip, we had elders like steven, and we had apostles, which is translated as being sent, or messenger

I can't find anything regarding installing apostles or prophets. But we know they existed even after the 12 just by reference throughout the NT.

Jesus is our High Priest, our Great Shepherd... please explain why you disregard Eph 4 because of Heb 11:1-2.

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

You worded that carefully. I would agree that conviction brings shame before it brings hope, and that shame is a normal human emotion.

However, this idea of rebuking sinners in the church openly to embarrass them is disgusting and not at all in the flow or stream of the teachings of Jesus.

Shame doesn't lead us to repentance. Grace does. Shame humiliates us, grace shows us a way out.

In the New Testament, Paul's writing on the subject of spiritual gifts, tongues and prophecy sandwich 1 Corinthians 13 (chapters 12 and 14). All spiritual gifts and leadership are bathed in this kind of love.

Jesus did come to make bad people good, but to make dead people live. If the Holy Spirit wishes to reveal the sin in a person's heart, the Spirit is doing so in love, not humiliation. The Spirit knows how to humble us without humiliating us. Often times these public shows of "calling out" are nothing more than stroking the ego of the so-called prophet. It's disgusting religiosity.

The only time someone was "called out" in the New Testament in front of the entire community was when the man had already called himself out, was involved in incest and continually boasted about this sexual relationship to the congregation. This was a unique situation. I'm troubled when people go to this situation as normalcy for Church Leadership. We don't find the heart of a matter on exceptional issues.

The woman was more taken aback because she perceived him to be a prophet. The miracle vindicated His claim to be the I AM. This is why she was excited. Her excitement did not come from humiliation. It came from the promise of eternal life and hope.

(Words of Christ) Matthew 18:15-17 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

(Paul's commandment to Timothy, a leader in the church) 1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

What is your understanding of these scriptures? Are they still exceptions? Or do they agree in some way with what you are saying? I think, if we continue with this discussion, we can find that they agree.

[Jeffrey]

@Stephen The context of 1 Timothy 5:

Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well,[e] especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.” And in another place, “Those who work deserve their pay!”[f]

19 Do not listen to an accusation against an elder unless it is confirmed by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin should be reprimanded in front of the whole church; this will serve as a strong warning to others.
I solemnly command you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus and the holy angels to obey these instructions without taking sides or showing favoritism to anyone.

22 Never be in a hurry about appointing a church leader.[g] Do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

23 Don’t drink only water. You ought to drink a little wine for the sake of your stomach because you are sick so often.

24 Remember, the sins of some people are obvious, leading them to certain judgment. But there are others whose sins will not be revealed until later. 25 In the same way, the good deeds of some people are obvious. And the good deeds done in secret will someday come to light.

Paul's words mean something specific to the audience here. It sounds like there is much gossip about alleged sins of an elder. Paul is trying to teach them to handle this in a Gospel way.

The Scripture in Matthew says "if a brother sins against you." Instead of being upset, gossiping, the brother is instructed to go to the other brother and let him know. If the situation does not get resolved, he should bring other brothers or elders together in the matter.

Regarding 1 Tim 5:20: Timothy is told there are times are when not only an elder should be rebuked, but times when he should be rebuked publicly.

This is a good reminder that leaders who fall into a life of sin, or evil wrong-doing should be accountable to the people, and not just tucked under the carpet with a sudden pastoral departure. The people should see with leaders what sin is, how vulnerable we all are, and that there's no place for a lifestyle of sin with those who desire to lead the Church.

[stephenroehm]

Now, THIS is a discussion. I will post in a while, but it may be tomorrow as I'm at work and have church tomorrow. I have a lot of responding to do. Keep it up, guys! Iron sharpening Iron.

Sorry that I get hung up on word usage so much. I pay VERY close attention to the words people use to send the messages they do, and sometimes it gets in the way. I apologize.

[Jeffrey]

Where I think some struggle (with elders that fall into sin bringing it to the congregation), is choosing which sins are worthy? Sexual indiscretions? Stealing office paper? Feeling hate toward a congregant? Thinking a lustful thought? Gossiping about someone? Which one is worthy of being brought to the congregation?

Also, the word "rebuke" tends to draw sharp ideas in our head. Like a man being pummeled in front of the crowd. Like a stoning with words and scripture. That's not really what I think is in mind here with "rebuke."