On the right hand of God

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Adino

Mfblume, thanks again for sharing your thoughts. I do not have the time I used to have to respond to these threads which is why I have been absent for some time.

After reading your last posts I think you may be confusing two different things. There was a work of God done IN CHRIST that was finished on the Cross. This was the work of remission. Then there is a subsequent work God does IN US through the risen Christ when we believe. This is the work of justification. I think you've combined the two works of God together into one. It seems you think we are right with God when he forgives us. This is not the case. We are right with God only when He imputes to us the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Though forgiven on the Cross we need to be justified based on the imputed righteousness of Christ.

I realize many think the righteousness imputed to us is that righteousness performed by the believer through the empowerment of the Spirit, but I believe it is more correct to understand that the righteousness imputed to man is completely foreign to him - it is that of Christ. Just as our sinful actions were imputed to Christ, Christ's righteous actions are imputed to us. Christ did not himself sin in the imputation, nor is that righteousness imputed to us upon which God bases our justification the result of us 'doing right.' The sin imputed to Christ was foreign to him as the righteousness imputed to us is foreign to us.

Our sins were imputed to Christ and paid for by his death. This brought an immediate finished work of remission when he died. Christ's righteousness is subsequently imputed to us when we believe (Romans 3:22; Romans 4:11; Romans 10:10). This brings our justification before God.

Also, I find it a rather ironic that you seem to downplay the Calvinist position of 'election' while positing a position akin to the idea of 'limited atonement,' the "L" in their "TULIP." You say "all sin was imputed to Christ on the Cross," but you really mean only sin presently recognized, acknowledged and repented of was imputed to Christ on the Cross. In your view, the atonement will ultimately only cover those sins and not others (in fact, you re-stated this to be the case). The atonement was thus limited only to the sins of those who ultimately elected to believe. That the atonement had potential strength to cover all sin is irrelevant if one does not accept that it did. Unless it did, the atonement was limited.

My position understands the full work of atonement by Christ in recognizing His blood fully dealt with all sin whether repented of or not. All sin was imputed to Christ on the Cross and historically remitted opening the door for the possibility of justification based on the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us when we believe. The cause of spiritual death was removed on the Cross so that we might receive the justification of life (Romans 5:18).

This leads us back to a question I asked earlier concerning the removal of the cause of spiritual death. I'd like to hear your answer to that question:

Can a man possess the Spirit of Life while still condemned by imputed sin?

He is espousing a form of limited atonement, agreed.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Norman

I thought this was going to be about the right hand of God.

LOL.... it still is, Bro! Since I believe it is impossible for someone to be granted life without first having all sin imputed to him remitted, I do not believe Christ could have been raised from the dead to take his place on the right hand of God until all our sin imputed to him was forever remitted. Christ stepped into time, took upon himself our sins, then died for those sins. Having purged our sins he then took his place on the right hand of God (Hebrews 1:3).

Mfblume tends to disagree, but then again, I think he also believes it was possible for Cornelius to be granted spiritual life without first having had his sins, the cause of spiritual death, remitted.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Adino, let me say that remission of sins is not the end-all of everything like you thought I proposed. Imputation of His righteousness is indeed what we require. Even with remission of sins, we do not have what it takes to get to glory, and that is the righteousness of Christ.

When would you say we pass from condemnation into justification? When are we no longer condemned but justified in God's eyes?

[Adino]

Happy Thanksgiving

"For the remission of sins" and the gift of eternal life - I am truly grateful.

For the understanding that sins must first be remitted in order for life to be received - I am truly grateful.

Remission of sins precedes resurrection. The cause of death must first be remitted in order to allow life. All sin imputed to Christ was remitted prior to his physical resurrection else he would still be in the grave. Death freed Christ from our sin (Romans 6:7). Having purged our sins by his death he subsequently took his place on the right hand of God (Hebrews 1:3) making it possible for us to receive the promise of eternal life (Hebrews 9:15).

Christ took away our sin on the Cross so that those who are spiritually dead in unbelief might come to him for life (John 10:10; John 10:28). He that believes has life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26; Cornelius in Acts 10 prior to baptism).

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Adino

LOL.... it still is, Bro! Since I believe it is impossible for someone to be granted life without first having all sin imputed to him remitted, I do not believe Christ could have been raised from the dead to take his place on the right hand of God until all our sin imputed to him was forever remitted.

Just saw your latest notes on this.

I deny that Christ was raised because our sins were remitted. HE was raised because he finished the work to provide for the remission that occurs in us when we repent.

Christ stepped into time, took upon himself our sins, then died for those sins. Having purged our sins he then took his place on the right hand of God (Hebrews 1:3).

Having provided the perfect sacrifice for those sins, and having been perfectly obedient he was raised. He was not raised because he remitted our sins.

Php 2:8-9 KJV And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Mfblume tends to disagree, but then again, I think he also believes it was possible for Cornelius to be granted spiritual life without first having had his sins, the cause of spiritual death, remitted.

No, Cornelius was not given life before sins were remitted. Cornelius obviously repented in his heart while Peter preached, and that caused remission. He believed God for forgiveness and trusted solely int he cross that Peter was preaching.

Act 10:43 KJV To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Cornelius did not have remission of sins before he believed as though Jesus personally gave Cornelius remission of sins long before peter ever preached to him. Peter preached the message and Cornelius believed for it!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Adino

When would you say we pass from condemnation into justification? When are we no longer condemned but justified in God's eyes?

This does not occur before we heard the gospel and believe it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Adino

After reading your last posts I think you may be confusing two different things. There was a work of God done IN CHRIST that was finished on the Cross. This was the work of remission. Then there is a subsequent work God does IN US through the risen Christ when we believe. This is the work of justification. I think you've combined the two works of God together into one.

I do not think they are one and the same experience, but that they do occur at the same time.

It seems you think we are right with God when he forgives us. This is not the case.

I disagree. When He forgives us He imputes His righteousness to us.

We are right with God only when He imputes to us the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Though forgiven on the Cross we need to be justified based on the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Like I said, He imputes righteousness on us when he forgives us. They're not synonymous, but neither are they separated in time and space.

I realize many think the righteousness imputed to us is that righteousness performed by the believer through the empowerment of the Spirit, but I believe it is more correct to understand that the righteousness imputed to man is completely foreign to him - it is that of Christ.

I agree righteousness is foreign to us and must be given as a gift.

Put it this way. I think I said it before: Christ forgave everyone when He died on the cross. He cried to the father for our forgiveness. But that did not mean we were forgiven before we asked, but that God made His mind up that such a perfect sacrifice moved Him to forgive as soon as anyone would ask, but only when they would ask. He settled it that the sacrifice of the cross was sufficient for ANYONE, regardless of who it was or what they did, due to the overspreading efficacy of the cross. He would not have to pick and choose whom He would respond to when they asked forgiveness.

Just as our sinful actions were imputed to Christ, Christ's righteous actions are imputed to us. Christ did not himself sin in the imputation, nor is that righteousness imputed to us upon which God bases our justification the result of us 'doing right.' The sin imputed to Christ was foreign to him as the righteousness imputed to us is foreign to us.

Exactly.

Our sins were imputed to Christ and paid for by his death. This brought an immediate finished work of remission when he died.

It provided for remission when we would seek it. There is where I think you are making a leap. What is written at the start of Hebrews is qualified by the following:

Heb 10:16-18 KJV This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Notice that remission is equated to not remembering our iniquities. This proves you are in error. How can God not remember our iniquities before we committed them, in order to see them and then forget them? It's not a time/eternal perspective game, either as though God is in an ever-now state, although he obviously is. It's just that He still works with time and space. Remission is noted above to occur when he writes his laws in our hearts and then remembers our iniquities no more. The context of that experience demands remission not have occurred before. We would not read remission occurs when iniquities are forgotten if you are correct. If iniquities are forgotten before we committed them, then we do not need to be sorry for them. "What sins are you talking about?" would God say.

Christ's righteousness is subsequently imputed to us when we believe (Romans 3:22; Romans 4:11; Romans 10:10). This brings our justification before God.

but it requires remission of sins when we repent in order for Him to impute righteousness to us.

Also, I find it a rather ironic that you seem to downplay the Calvinist position of 'election' while positing a position akin to the idea of 'limited atonement,' the "L" in their "TULIP." You say "all sin was imputed to Christ on the Cross," but you really mean only sin presently recognized, acknowledged and repented of was imputed to Christ on the Cross.

Let me say it this way. I do not believe in limited atonement any more than I believe in predestination and election of the individual. Rom 8 teaches that only those whom GOD FOREKNOWS TO LOVE HIM does he predestine their journey. This does not mean he predestines their decision to love Him. Loving Him is solely our choice. But He knows who will love Him. So as much as that removes predestination and election from the equation, so does my thought that God foreknows who will choose to repent.

In your view, the atonement will ultimately only cover those sins and not others (in fact, you re-stated this to be the case). The atonement was thus limited only to the sins of those who ultimately elected to believe.

NO NO NO. Not elected to believe. Atonement is for those who choose to believe without any election to believe.

. That the atonement had potential strength to cover all sin is irrelevant if one does not accept that it did. Unless it did, the atonement was limited.

My position understands the full work of atonement by Christ in recognizing His blood fully dealt with all sin whether repented of or not. All sin was imputed to Christ on the Cross and historically remitted opening the door for the possibility of justification based on the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us when we believe. The cause of spiritual death was removed on the Cross so that we might receive the justification of life (Romans 5:18).

This leads us back to a question I asked earlier concerning the removal of the cause of spiritual death. I'd like to hear your answer to that question:

Can a man possess the Spirit of Life while still condemned by imputed sin?

No a man cannot.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Just saw your latest notes on this.

I deny that Christ was raised because our sins were remitted. HE was raised because he finished the work to provide for the remission that occurs in us when we repent.



Having provided the perfect sacrifice for those sins, and having been perfectly obedient he was raised. He was not raised because he remitted our sins.

Php 2:8-9 KJV And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

No, Cornelius was not given life before sins were remitted. Cornelius obviously repented in his heart while Peter preached, and that caused remission. He believed God for forgiveness and trusted solely int he cross that Peter was preaching.

Act 10:43 KJV To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Cornelius did not have remission of sins before he believed as though Jesus personally gave Cornelius remission of sins long before peter ever preached to him. Peter preached the message and Cornelius believed for it!

Amen!!!

[Sister Alvear]

well I agree with the good Elder Blume...
How can we be saved if we have not repented? Of course He had us all in His plan but salvation is a choice we make...we are not born saved persay...at some point we chose our etenal home...well that is how I feel about it...why wuould we have to endure to the end to be saved if we are already saved?

I cannot imagine saying devil worshippers are saved...I see them everyday, watch them beat drums to the spirits, drink blood of chickens and all sorts of things...

[Sister Alvear]

I have staked my whole life and eternity on the fact God called me to be a missionary and preach HIS plan of salvation...just as Peter preached in Acts...