Leadership in the home and church

[fl4christ]

I believe you have misunderstood what I was saying. Be for I go any further, let me clear up any confusion concerning my understanding of the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. I do know and understand the difference quite well, and no I am not one who preaches the following of the letter of the law.

In regards to your comment -

And I guess then if Moses did wrong in this instance then the early church must have not listened to the voice to God when they appointed elders to take care of the adminstrative responibilities of the church. Acts 6.

No where in anything that I have written did I say that, or suggest it. That is something you have come to reason or assume on your own. The reason you will not find me saying that about Paul's instruction to appoint leaders or about what took place in ACTS ch.6 is because those were men full of the HOLYGHOST not acting of their own accord or making suggestions or ideas based on a suggestion that came from someone who was not HOLYGHOST filled themselves. In fact ACTS ch.6, in my opinion only adds supporting weight to my saying that Jethro's advice to Moses was exactly that Jethro's advice to Moses and did not come from GOD nor was GOD in agreement with it. Why do I say it is added proof to my claim? Read ch.6 - (I'll share some of it)
2Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
3Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
5And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Look at the type of people that they chose, not to go out & preach the gospel with them for their words are "It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables." and "Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word."

How do I know that this was the HOLYGHOST'S doing and not a man's or group of mens' idea? Because of the results it produced. -

7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
8And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

No I did not miss "If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so".
You asked me, "Don't you think Moses went to God to inquire as to if he should do this or not?". My answer is - No, I do not think Moses went to GOD & inquired if he should do this or not. The reason why I do not believe that he did is simply because I believe that if he did, it would say that he did in our bible. Instead all it says is that he listened to Jethro and did as Jethro suggested.

As I shared with brother Stephen in my last reply to him, it wasn't that the idea itself in general is a bad idea. But read ch.18 from the beginning, Jethro shows up, sees what is taking place with Moses, and then gives this advice. Jethro does not know any of these people, was not around them or with them in Egypt, and has no clue to what any of the character of any of them is. He gives advice under the assumption that there are people, that actually meet those qualifications among them for Moses to choose. Remember now according to Jethro's idea, the way it was to work was that these people that Moses chose would handle the small things themselves and the hard things they were to take to Moses. If these people were fit for the positions they were given why did they have all the problems that they had after they were appointed, that we read about starting in ch.19 of Exodus. If they were the ones bringing the hard things to Moses then they were the ones chiding him, complaining, provoking the building of the golden calf. GOD'S own description of them is that they are a stiffnecked bunch of people, turning their backs on GOD, doubting HIS love, and HIS keeping HIS word that HE gave them. A people that upset GOD so much and that obviously HE didn't account any of them with high enough to serve in the offices or positions that Moses appointed some of them to because HIS Words to Moses were "seperate yourself" and not "seperate yourself and the ones you appointed" because HE was going to wipe the rest of them out & start over. It has been my experience that people usually draw on past experiences with GOD working and doing things in their lives for faith & confidence that HE will do the same in whatever current or future things they may face. But not this people.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

While I understand where you are comming from, there is a major flaw in your way of thinking. And that is if one gets his direction from God is that to say that he is to only get his direction from God? This cannot work as we are still just men and there are just as many times that we think we know the voice of God when it is just our humanity.

We need the council and fellowship of others just as much as we need our personal relationship with God. I think you missed this....

Exo 18:23 If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

Don't you think Moses went to God to inquire as to if he should do this or not?

You proved my point when you spoke of two times that Moses did not follow God. Although I don't understand what you are saying about the Levitical priesthood though. Just because God speaks directly to some one does not make them right all the time.

And I guess then if Moses did wrong in this instance then the early church must have not listened to the voice to God when they appointed elders to take care of the adminstrative responibilities of the church. Acts 6.

You speak of following God's word to the letter? And this is where we go wrong. This was the reason the pharise were so wrong. They tried to follow the letter of the law, and not the spirit. This type of Christianity is what I call ultra concervitive. This is a cult type of organization, where the leader lays down the law, and if you do not submit you are going to hell.

The problem is this is not how the word shows us things are to be. First Jesus promised the Holy Ghost to everyone, and that the Holy Ghost would bring to rememberance and teach us all things, If I have the same holy ghost as you and God teaches and talked to me, where then do I need to have authoritive person over me God is over me? We are to be subject one to another, not leaders to leaders, but leaders to subjects.

Let me draw a picture a theocracy is God ruling man, he speaks to the individual as needed. The only time he sends a spokesman is when full idolitry comes within the people and no one is listening.

A theocracy is not God speaks to one man and that one man passed it on. That is a dictatorship. Go back to the beginning Moses was called to do one thing, lead Isreal out of Egypt. He was not called to dictate, he was called to give the law to Isreal, because of thier continued transgresion. He was not called to be the spokesperson, he brought them to the MT and the people turned from hearing the voice of God and made Moses the spokesperson.

Isreal decided they wanted a king, and they went to the only person they could go to Samual. Why because they were on the edge of falling back into idolitry. The presance of God had not been in the tabernacle for a while before Samual.

Such a sad state, this should speak to each and every one of us of our own relationship with God. If the people had followed God they would never have wanted a king, and they would never have needed the prophet.

We have become like the Isrealite, We are Christian by name, but not true Christian for we demanded a pastor (king) when we had the best pastor ever (Jesus Chirst) we do lip service to God but too many of us don't have the sliteist idea of true relationship with God.

God gave us his word to lead us to him, he gives his spirit to guide us.

Jesus told the Pharise one day, you search the scriptures and think you have found eternal life but they are they which speak of me. We are still doing this today, looking for eternal life in the scriptures, When eternal life is right before our eyes.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[fl4christ]

I agree with you 100% - "If the people had followed God they would never have wanted a king, and they would never have needed the prophet."; and "God gave us his word to lead us to him, he gives his spirit to guide us.".

Those people with Moses made it clear that was not what they wanted. They wanted Moses as a spokesman between them & GOD, so that is what GOD gave them. They wanted a king like the other nations had, so GOD gave them what they wanted.

I don't know if you know this from personal experience or not brother, but I can tell you from first hand experience that if a person is not careful of what he or she allows to become a desire in his or her heart, and they allow that desire to grow & continually pull on GOD'S heart for it harder and harder, HE will give it to them, even though having it or getting it is not in their best interest. But it will become a learning tool for them, and hopefully through testifying, for others as well so they don't have to learn the hard way as well.

I also believe, as I shared with brother Stephen that -

Of course if GOD wanted that system set up that Jethro suggested and Moses did; GOD could have and would have told Moses who to appoint and to which office, and GOD would have seen to it that each person HE told Moses to pick had the wisdom to perform the duties of the office that GOD placed him in. Just as we read HE did in Exodus 31:1-11 -

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying , 2 See , I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: 3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, 5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship. 6 And I, behold, I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: and in the hearts of all that are wise hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee;

Again the difference between what took place their and what took place in the New Testament was it was the HOLYGHOST speaking & doing through those people in the New Testament.

As far as receiving council from others goes. I believe that our LORD speaks to us in many ways. I say "us" because I am sure that HE doesn't just do it with me. My own personal experience in my relationship with HIM is that when I have questions, I ask HIM; when HE answers, HE answers in many different ways. Sometimes it is directly within me, sometimes it is through other people, sometimes it is something I read or see. But whenever it is through outside sources(anything other than within me) it is not in direct response to a question that I am asking. In other words, I don't ask HIM a question about something specific, and then go ask a person I believe to be full of GODLY Wisdom for the answer; nor go out & pick out a book on the subject or a book that I think will have the answer and read it. But HIS sheep know HIS voice and I am one of HIS sheep, and I definitely know HIS voice and recognize IT when IT speaks to me. I have experienced it on both ends. I have been at work communing with HIM as I work, HE stops me & had me write 3 things down on a piece of paper, and put it in my pocket. Later that evening I am fellowshipping with a precious brother that is in town visiting, and as we are riding in my truck talking about our LORD, he tells me that he has 3 things that he wonders about or doesn't understand. He tells me what they are, doesn't understand why I start laughing so hard, I reach in my pocket, pull out the folded piece of paper & throw it at him, and tell him here this is for you. He asked what it is, and I told him it's the answers to your 3 questions.

I agree with you about the personal relationship with HIM, and I have and enjoy mine very dearly.

I also think that a HOLYGHOST filled and led pastor, is of GOD, and in a church that the HOLYGHOST has control of will always be busy because of new converts coming in. But more importantly, I believe the role GOD intends them to play is the same as that of the conductor of an orchestra. And it is the HOLYSPIRIT in him and through him that is conducting the orchestra and not the man standing there before the orchestra. The same way the conductor knows what it is supposed to sound like when it all comes together, and when gathered together and everyone is playing their part at the same time, it is through his ears that GOD identifies, which section when it is out of tune, and which individuals within that section, and then gives them Word that helps them to become more in tuned with the rest of that local orchestra that GOD has called them to be a part of and placed them in.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

While I understand where you are comming from, there is a major flaw in your way of thinking. And that is if one gets his direction from God is that to say that he is to only get his direction from God? This cannot work as we are still just men and there are just as many times that we think we know the voice of God when it is just our humanity.

We need the council and fellowship of others just as much as we need our personal relationship with God. I think you missed this....

Exo 18:23 If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

Don't you think Moses went to God to inquire as to if he should do this or not?

You proved my point when you spoke of two times that Moses did not follow God. Although I don't understand what you are saying about the Levitical priesthood though. Just because God speaks directly to some one does not make them right all the time.

And I guess then if Moses did wrong in this instance then the early church must have not listened to the voice to God when they appointed elders to take care of the adminstrative responibilities of the church. Acts 6.

You speak of following God's word to the letter? And this is where we go wrong. This was the reason the pharise were so wrong. They tried to follow the letter of the law, and not the spirit. This type of Christianity is what I call ultra concervitive. This is a cult type of organization, where the leader lays down the law, and if you do not submit you are going to hell.

The problem is this is not how the word shows us things are to be. First Jesus promised the Holy Ghost to everyone, and that the Holy Ghost would bring to rememberance and teach us all things, If I have the same holy ghost as you and God teaches and talked to me, where then do I need to have authoritive person over me God is over me? We are to be subject one to another, not leaders to leaders, but leaders to subjects.

Let me draw a picture a theocracy is God ruling man, he speaks to the individual as needed. The only time he sends a spokesman is when full idolitry comes within the people and no one is listening.

A theocracy is not God speaks to one man and that one man passed it on. That is a dictatorship. Go back to the beginning Moses was called to do one thing, lead Isreal out of Egypt. He was not called to dictate, he was called to give the law to Isreal, because of thier continued transgresion. He was not called to be the spokesperson, he brought them to the MT and the people turned from hearing the voice of God and made Moses the spokesperson.

Isreal decided they wanted a king, and they went to the only person they could go to Samual. Why because they were on the edge of falling back into idolitry. The presance of God had not been in the tabernacle for a while before Samual.

Such a sad state, this should speak to each and every one of us of our own relationship with God. If the people had followed God they would never have wanted a king, and they would never have needed the prophet.

We have become like the Isrealite, We are Christian by name, but not true Christian for we demanded a pastor (king) when we had the best pastor ever (Jesus Chirst) we do lip service to God but too many of us don't have the sliteist idea of true relationship with God.

God gave us his word to lead us to him, he gives his spirit to guide us.

Jesus told the Pharise one day, you search the scriptures and think you have found eternal life but they are they which speak of me. We are still doing this today, looking for eternal life in the scriptures, When eternal life is right before our eyes.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[onefaith2]

Well said Fl4Christ

[stephenroehm]

@FL4Christ - I mean no offence by this, but I'm getting lost in your posts. Can you answer, simply yes or no, if you think that the delegation of responsibilities and intercession are Godly principles?

[fl4christ]

That's alright my brother, I take no offence in your telling me that. And I apologize for my not being able to explain things better, or with the right words and wording so that you were able to receive & understand what I was hoping and trying to share with you. The last thing I wanted was for you to take the time to read it & then find yourself scratching your head & saying "huh" when you get to the end.


To answere your question - "Can you answer, simply yes or no, if you think that the delegation of responsibilities and intercession are Godly principles?"

My answer is "No, I cannot simply answer yes or no to your question."

The reason why is because you are asking me about two very different things in the same sentence, when each one should be it's own question.
Maybe you don't see it that way because you've already made up your mind that both are GODLY principles.

The reason I do not see "the delegation of responsibilities" and "intercession" the same way is because I am not quite sure that I understand exactly what you mean when you use the phrase "the delegation of responsibilities", and if I believe it to be a GODLY principle. So as far as that one goes, if you could try & help me out by telling me in more detail what exactly you are thinking of or comes to mind when you think of "the delegation of responsibilities" and what makes it a GODLY principle in your eyes.

Now "intercession" to me, is a whole different story. It has a very, very specific definition and I have full confidence that when you or I make reference to the word "intercession" that we both believe it to mean the same thing. And I am sure that we would both agree that our bible is just jam packed full of examples throughout both the Old & New Testament of GOD making intercession on our(mans) behalf.

So as far as "intercession" goes, I do have an answer for you; and if all you are wanting brother Stephen is my "yes" or "no" answer, and are not interested in the explanation for my answer; my answer is right below. It is because there might be others who also read this post and my answer, I did include an explanation for my answer.


Do I believe that "intercession" is a GODLY principle? No, I do not. I believe "intercession" is one of GOD'S Attributes; not one of HIS Principles. I not only believe so, I know so.

**If anyone reading this thinks they are the same thing(attributes & principles), they are not. **

A PRINCIPLE is defined as a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning(i.e.-the basic principles of Christianity). It is also defined as a rule or belief governing one's personal behavior(i.e.-struggling to be true to their own principles).
GODLY Principles would be things like - remaining a virgin & undefiled until married; one wife; not divorcing your spouse; not committing adultry; honoring your father & mother; helping the sick or lame, poor, single moms, widows, the orphaned & elderly.

An ATTRIBUTE is defined as a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something; built-in: existing as an essential constituent or characteristic.
GOD'S Attributes are things, qualities, & characteristics that are a part of HIM, making HIM who HE is. Part of HIS Essence. They are things about HIM that are inside of HIM that HE can't help but be a certain way. "Intercession" is one of those attributes. That is why "Intercession" is an Attribute of GOD, & not a Principle.

Principles are formed, made, & exist at the conscious level.
Attributes are formed & exist at the subconscious level.
A person can struggle with staying true to their principles; but his attributes can't help but manifest. There is no struggle or debate over doing the right thing, or doing things because you are a christian & as a christian should be doing those things; or because it says in Paul's letters I should do those things. Just like a sheep doesn't have to stand there consciously thinking about bearing wool in order for it to happen. It doesn't wonder(or worry) if it's getting enough of this type or that type of grass. Nor does it wonder if it "baaaaas" enough; or think something is wrong with it because it either doesn't "baaaaa" as much as the rest of the flock or at "baaaas" a lot more than the rest of the flock".

In the Old Testament GOD was always making intercession on mans' behalf, sometimes supernaturally, and other times through a person. When GOD was so upset with Israel and was going to wipe them all out;without thought or hesitation, Moses fell to the ground on his face and interceded on their behalf. Absolutely no hesitation at all. The reason I stress that is because these were the same people who never showed Moses any respect, or appreciation for all the personal sacrifices he made for their freedom.
But was Moses intercession between GOD and HIS people, just Moses following or adhering to a GODLY Principle? No. If you disagree then show me in the bible where GOD told Moses that if HE ever gets so upset with HIS people that HE is going to wipe them all out; HE expects Moses to intercede & talk HIM out of it. Intercession was as much an attribute in Moses as it is in GOD. Remember once he found out that he was also Hebrew, he could no longer continue to live with all the comforts he had become accustomed to and lived with for many years in the house of Pharoah, while he knew the rest of his people were suffering & living in horrible conditions. Intercession was so much a part of him that even being miles & miles away from seeing them suffer & being mistreated; as well as getting married & starting a family. Where most people are fine with others hurting or lacking around them as long as they are doing well; it wasn't so with Moses. And like I said there he was on his face before GOD pleading for the lives of all those people who were always murmurring, backbiting, stirring up rebellion, and were ready to stone him.

Was Abraham following a GODLY principle when he interceded on Lot's behalf after he found out that GOD was going to destroy Sodom & Gomorrah? No, it wasn't?
How about Peter when he told the cripple man,"silver & gold have I none, but such as I have I give unto you....."

How about when Paul was in prison & the HOLYGHOST set him free, & the guard thought for sure that the prisoners escaped & he was going to be executed once his superiors found out (In fact if memory serves me correctly I think the guard was going to take his own life right then)? But he heard Paul call out & tell him not to fear for they were all still there & none of them had left. Not only did Paul save the guards natural life, but led him & some of his family to CHRIST as well. Was Paul following a GODLY principle of intercession; or was that the HOLYGHOST manifesting IT'S "intercession" attribute yet once again through another surrendered vessel & life.

Some may not like this but the truth is that when the HOLYGHOST is leading us and controlling our lives, everything flows from within, whatever the situation, whe the time comes or situation presents itself, there is no thinking, just acting. The same way and with the same urgency that your hands grab your foot & massage the toes, if you smash them against something; is the same way on the spiritual level that the spiritual body reacts when the HOLYGHOST is ALLOWED to have complete control.

HIS ways are far too different than our ways of thinking & doing. We each have 2 options to choose from. A) We invite HIM inside the vessel with us, go where HE wants or needs to go, spending lots & lots of quality time alone with HIM, getting to know HIM more & more along the way..... But never actually completely surrendering the driver's seat of our vessel to HIM; and let HIM drive while we sit in the passenger side, & just go along for the ride. Sure we take HIM wherever HE wants to go. But you'll never grow as close in your relationship with in the passenger seat & you behind the wheel; as you will when you give HIM the keys, let HIM do the driving, and you are in the passenger seat, relaxing & just along for the ride. As long as your still doing the driving, your attention is divided instead of completely focused on HIM. When your the driver, you're having to pay too much attention to the road you're on, watching the other vessels out there around you, traffic lights & signs, as well as keeping an eye on the all the gages, etc. that let you know that your vessel's condition that you are riding in is okay. Sometimes you'll question the routes HE wants you to take to get HIM to a location because it doesn't make sense to your finite mind to go that route to get there. All those things you are having to pay attention to are distractions because you see things along the way that get you sidetracked & thinking about other things. But if you let HIM be the driver, you don't have to think about any of the stuff that's going on out there in the traffic around you. HE doesn't have the same problems that we do because HE knows where all the other vehicles around HIM are going; when they are going to turn, stop suddenly, pull out into traffic. In fact HE knows all of that even before they know it themselves; so you can talk with HIM while HE is driving & still have HIS complete attention. Besides do you really think you could plan a more exciting & fun road trip for the 2 of you than HE could and will if you let HIM?

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

@FL4Christ - I mean no offence by this, but I'm getting lost in your posts. Can you answer, simply yes or no, if you think that the delegation of responsibilities and intercession are Godly principles?

[Pilgrum]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

He was telling Moses to delegate responsibilities so he would not be overwhelmed and also to intercede for the people (bring their causes to God). Basically what you are saying is that those two principles are not part of God's plan. The princples given are no different than Paul telling Timothy to ordain elders in every city (Titus 1:5). Pastors are given to shepherd the flock (Definition of Pastor is Shepherd) and they are to appoint leaders by the laying of the hands of the presbytery (Titus 4:14), partly in order to ensure they don't try to carry the weight of the all of the affairs of the church. Moses was a type and shadow of a pastor.

Is it possible that Jethro, as Moses' elder, had a word of wisdom that came from that LORD that would help Moses carry the burdens of the people and that the principles were later confirmed when given from Paul to Timothy?

Was Moses a type of a pastor? Or was Moses a type of Jesus Christ? I think the later.

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" (Deu 18:15)

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by Pilgrum

Was Moses a type of a pastor? Or was Moses a type of Jesus Christ? I think the later.

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" (Deu 18:15)

Jesus is the ultimate pastor, as He alone was the "Good Shepherd", so I think both points fit. If Moses was a type of Christ, he was also a type of pastor.

[Godsdrummer]

fl4christ
Of course if GOD wanted that system set up that Jethro suggested and Moses did; GOD could have and would have told Moses who to appoint and to which office, and GOD would have seen to it that each person HE told Moses to pick had the wisdom to perform the duties of the office that GOD placed him in. Just as we read HE did in Exodus 31:1-11 -

I agree with you in principle on what you say about Moses taking Jethro's advice. As a possiblilty that Moses did not ask God if it was ok. I leave room for discusion as Jethro did state that "if God agreed" as for not having scripture to prove one way or the other it is a point that must and cannot IMHP be proved one way or the other. Your statement that God would have recorded it if it was one way or the other, does not hold water. Too many doctrines are preached on the assumsion of something that is aluded to but not spelled out. I feel we should not push things not in the word of God. We should further not read into the word things that we think should be in the word. Just my opinion.

As far as receiving council from others goes. I believe that our LORD speaks to us in many ways.

I too have experiance with God speaking to me in different ways, and I too wait for him to confirm his word, which he does with out fail. I must say I do look to the councle of others, many times just the way they respond confirms what God has spoken to me. Yet I do not lock myself into anything, too many groups have missed further leading of God as they receive one truth, or part of truth, and do not move further into the rest of the glory God has for them. I was raised that way, and it was not until the last 20 years that I have allowed God to teach me. That is the problem with organizations that profess to have the "whole truth".

I also think that a HOLYGHOST filled and led pastor, is of GOD, and in a church that the HOLYGHOST has control of will always be busy because of new converts coming in. But more importantly, I believe the role GOD intends them to play is the same as that of the conductor of an orchestra. And it is the HOLYSPIRIT in him and through him that is conducting the orchestra and not the man standing there before the orchestra. The same way the conductor knows what it is supposed to sound like when it all comes together, and when gathered together and everyone is playing their part at the same time, it is through his ears that GOD identifies, which section when it is out of tune, and which individuals within that section, and then gives them Word that helps them to become more in tuned with the rest of that local orchestra that GOD has called them to be a part of and placed them in.

This is where we must part ways, I cannot beleive God called pastors to fulfill a role as you discribe. I further beleive the rest of what has been called the "five fold ministry" are not offices but rather gifts given from the spirit of God to many. As we are all to become ministers of the Gospel of Christ.

Look at your example of a concuctor, how did he get to be a conductor? It was not the spirit that made him a conductor, it was years of study. Study that made him better in understanding music. Just this alone makes him a ruler, what you see at a concert is nothing like what happens in practice. Then the conductor rules, if a part is not played the way he thinks it should sound the musician is raked over the coals. (of course this depends on the conductor, just as there are good pastors and there are good or nice conductors).

The fact is God's design is to work within the body, through the gifts of the spirit, not one or two men in a local assembly. If you can give me just two NT passages to back up the way the leadership of most organization are conducted. I will change my mind. But I think you will see the passages used to back up the authoritive ministry over the body of Christ do not mean what we have translated them to mean.

Paul tells us in Ephesians 4

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

What is the vocation we are called to do?
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

We are the body there is only one body and the head is Christ,

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

As Christ is supposed to be the head of the church and we are to submit one to another, where do you get scripture to say we are to submit to a man that God supposedly called to be between us him.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul did not say God set some in office of apostles....etc Paul said God gave gifts, it is my opinion these are spiritual gifts that are given to work within the body of Christ, in order to equip us to better do the work of the ministry, and to edify the body of Christ. The New King James uses the word "equip" in place of "perfecting" but either way, these gifts are given so the "saints" can do the work of the ministry, therefore edifying the body of Christ.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Pilgrum

Was Moses a type of a pastor? Or was Moses a type of Jesus Christ? I think the later.

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" (Deu 18:15)

Moses was a type of Jesus Christ.

[fl4christ]

Hey Praise The LORD Everybody !!!!!!

In casse you are wondering, the reason for all my excitement is because I actually think I am about to write a short post.

Anyways brother, I don't think we see things so differently concerninng pastors, etc. And although it is true that there may be many out there who are not watching over the flocks they have charge over the way that GOD wants & expects them to.; there are some. It's like the saying goes - the fact that you have those false ones out there, only helps to prove that there are some real ones out there somewhere. Just like finding a counterfit $20 bill only proves that there are genuine $20 bills out there because they had to have a real one so they could try to copy it as closely as they could, otherwise everybody would know real easily that it wasn't genuine.

I don't know exactly when or where it happened brother, maybe you have an idea - but somewhere along the way the real definition of what a pastor is got lost, and has since been perverted (that's not meant in a sexual sense). Maybe if they would have done away with the word "pastor" completely, and stuck with just using the word "minister", it might have made a difference. Because it might have helped to remind them that they are not the captain of the guard, in charge of his batallion. There life & calling was to revolve around the taking care of the part of GOD'S flock that HE has placed under that pastors watch. But it seems long forgotten that that is exactly what it is - they are placed under his watch, and not in his charge. Sheep have to be looked after, watched carefully, and tended too. It has always both amazed me & saddened me at the same time to listen to some pastors talk time & time again about pastors & shepherds being the same thing and the sheep and the the people that make up the local assembly are the same as well. Then they don't like it when someone asks them,"why is it then that when a sheep wonders away from the flock, the shepherd is quick to notice it and then goes & finds it and brings it back; but most pastors don't do the same when one of their flock wanders away from the group; and to top it off they don't even notice that they haven't been there for a few weeks or more sometimes.

I loved it, the first time I was reading about David. Some wonder how GOD could say that David was a man after HIS own heart because of his weekness for women. Whenever that is voiced around me, I always tell people(just in case they misunderstan it) that GOD wasn't saying that David was chasing after HIS heart. HE was saying that David was fashioned after HIS own heart. And he was. Then I just point out that when David tells the story about the lion & the bear that he defeated while tending his fathers sheep; he doesn't say a bear came into camp and was going to kill me, or that another time a lion came in to camp and was going to eat him. He says a bear came in & took one of my fathers sheep, and then another time a lion came in and did the same thing. So he went after them to get his fathers sheep back. Oh he was a beautifully. So in other words he put his life on the line, for a sheep. He wasn't in any danger himself; and I don't believe that what he did is what his dad expected him to do, or approve of him doing it. What adds even more flavor to an already juicy story is something that it doesn't say in the story, but any one who knows anything about the habits and nature of wild animals. They are not like we are, when they are hunting or looking for food. We pick out the best & choicest of everything. Animal instict is to study from a distance first and find either the youngest one in the group or one that is mature, but lame and cannot move very quickly; so most likely it wasn't a prize sheep that the bear and the lion had taken. But when David looks at a bunch of sheep standing around together, he only sees sheep. None of them have pedigrees or are from a finer stock or lineage than others. And when he shepherds a flock, they stay one flock. He doesn't allow them to form little clicks amongst themselves.

Well it's longer than I the picture I had in my mind when I started to write it. Believe it or not, I'm a man of few words most of the time. And I don't say it to boast in anyway; the truth is I don't even understand why it is but OUR LORD, HIS WORD, & HIS PEOPLE are my favorite subject to talk about. And for whatever reason, once I start it's hard to stop.

Anyways, I love you saints & hope everyone has a wonderful & most blessed Thanksgiving.

Michael G