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  #31  
Old 06-26-2010, 01:26 AM
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SteppingStone SteppingStone is offline
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Re: The sons of God and the daughters of men

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post

The problem is, as I see it, that many today shy away from the supernatural. Things that are disturbing or unexplainable are quickly given more “natural” meanings. I think this comes from lack of faith.

Thoughts anyone???
Interesting and entertaining but I just don't buy it.
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  #32  
Old 06-26-2010, 11:21 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: The sons of God and the daughters of men

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
While Jesus implies that angels "neither marry, nor are given in marriage", Christ nowhere indicates that angels are incapable of taking a physical form, nor does Jesus indicate what they are or are not capable of while in that physical form. All Christ's words specify is that angels do not marry.
It only makes sense that angels cannot procreate. Otherwise, we have God creating angels with ability to procreate and disallowing them from doing it!

I think it's a case where flesh tends towards sensationalism.
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Last edited by mfblume; 06-26-2010 at 11:36 AM.
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  #33  
Old 06-28-2010, 09:43 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: The sons of God and the daughters of men

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Originally Posted by SteppingStone View Post
Interesting and entertaining but I just don't buy it.
That's where faith in God's Word comes in. It's difficult to believe in a six day creation and a global flood also. Not to mention... a man raised from the dead in three days.
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  #34  
Old 06-28-2010, 09:47 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: The sons of God and the daughters of men

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
It only makes sense that angels cannot procreate. Otherwise, we have God creating angels with ability to procreate and disallowing them from doing it!

I think it's a case where flesh tends towards sensationalism.
Angels around God's throne are called "beasts" and have "beastlike" appearances and qualities to them. Evil spirits are referred to as "hateful birds". But I digress on that one...

Consider this... I never said that angels could procreate. I said that the Scripture hints that angels can procreate when taking a physical form. If an angel can eat and wrestle...who's to say what else an angel can do when in physical form. And certainly if an angel's phyisical form is fully functional...God would forbid interbreeding and sinful acts. That's a given rather they can reproduce or not.

I think the ancients understood a lot more about the spirit world that contradict some of our spit and polished Neoplatonic notions.

Question...

If an angel took a physical form of a man...would that form be fully functional? Would that angel in human form have all the anatomy of a human male? Would it be functional? The ancients apparently believed the answer to be... yes.

Last edited by Aquila; 06-28-2010 at 09:50 AM.
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  #35  
Old 06-28-2010, 12:21 PM
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Re: The sons of God and the daughters of men

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
That's where faith in God's Word comes in. It's difficult to believe in a six day creation and a global flood also. Not to mention... a man raised from the dead in three days.
Another way to look at it is spiritual discernment. I have more faith in the Spirit of God that is leading and guiding me into all truth than just looking at words on a page and interpreting everything as literal...
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  #36  
Old 06-28-2010, 03:58 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: The sons of God and the daughters of men

One valid interpretation I've studied out is that the term "sons of God" isn't talking about "Seth" but the term is a title that rulers took upon themselves, sort of claiming divinity. These "sons of God" (kings claiming divinity) took wives all of which they chose and their children where the "giants". Perhaps these were rulers because of their stature and strength and their children had the same traits. I find that plausible but it still denies the interpretation held by the ancients.

Here's an interesting link to review on the angelic theory by a Oneness Pentecostal...

http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/genesis6.htm

There's so much to the spiritual realms. I don't doubt for a moment that we see an angelic fall here.

Last edited by Aquila; 06-28-2010 at 04:01 PM.
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  #37  
Old 07-25-2010, 05:17 AM
fl4christ fl4christ is offline
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Re: The sons of God and the daughters of men

If you do a little research you will find out that where we have the word "giants" in our bible translations, the actual Hebrew word is "nephelim" and the actually meaning of the word "nephelim" is "the fallen, or the fallen ones" and not "giants". If you look the word "nephelim" up on wikipedia it will confirm this and goes pretty deep. Some might not like what they find though - or at least find some of the possibilities hard to swallow.
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  #38  
Old 07-25-2010, 06:31 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: The sons of God and the daughters of men

Indeed this is the clincher.

Jude 6 You also know that the angels who did not keep within their proper domain but abandoned their own place of residence, he has kept in eternal chains in utter darkness, locked up for the judgment of the great Day. 7 So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire. 8 Yet these men, as a result of their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and insult the glorious ones. – NET Bible (emphasis added)

Those who ridicule the teaching of the fallen angels coming to Earth never attempt to explain this. The "sons of Seth" explanation falls flat when compared to this direct scripture about angels leaving their original place.
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  #39  
Old 07-25-2010, 07:31 AM
fl4christ fl4christ is offline
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Re: The sons of God and the daughters of men

(Translations according to New International Version. Note that translations frequently differ. In the King James Version of the Bible, "Nephilim" is translated as "giants" in the following examples.)

The term "Nephilim" occurs just twice in the Hebrew Bible, both in the Torah. The first is Genesis 6:1-4, immediately before the Noah's ark story:

1. When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,
2. the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
3. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.


If you go back to Genesis 5 it reads:
Genesis 5

Genesis 5

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

4And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:


*notice verse 4 says that Adam lived for 800 more years after he had Seth and Adam had sons and daughters.

*notice verse 1 says very plainly "these are the generations of Adam IN THE DAY THAT GOD CREATED MAN.

*notice verse makes the extra effort to point out that this son that Adam begat was in his likeness, and after his image. The reason I point this out is because I believe "after his image" has to do with having the same character as Adam, and Adam being made in the image of GOD and having GOD'S character would not be violent, a murderer, etc.
**A good question to bring up is why does chapter 5 say that these are the generations of Adam and start with Seth instead of Cain? If you read in Genesis 4 it tells us that Cain has a lineage, so why are they not listed along with Cain as part of the generations of Adam?

Genesis 4 also tells us that:
25And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. 26And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

*notice again a reflection of the character of the line of Seth - "then began men to call upon the name of the LORD"

When I started to write this it was to share with you about the nephelim and how some believe that "the fallen" refers to angels etc. (see wikipedia definition of "nephelim" or other sources) but as I was researching in the bible, I came across what I have been sharing with you instead - it is just Food For Thought, and definitely probably a completely different angle. Here is the rest of it -

**notice other verses from Genesis 4:

1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

5But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

14Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

16And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

17And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. 18And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.

19And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. 20And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. 21And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. 22And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah. 23And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. 24If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

***some of the things to notice here are:
*Cain builds a city, names it after his son, when the lineage of Seth do not name things after themselves.

*Cains lineage continues on and when it reaches Lamech, we see he is the first one listed in the bible to actually have two wives at the same time. When we read the generations of Adam it lists their first born son by name, tells how many years they lived after their first born son was born and says that they had many sons and daughters. Later in Genesis we read of Abraham took a second wife only after Sarah had died.

*Notice the detail it gives us on the children that are born to Lamech between his two wives. It doesn't just give us there names like the others, but tells you they are the fathers of music and musical instruments, skilled in the making and manipulation of metals or brass and iron(to be specific it says that Tubalcain was an instructor of EVERY ARTIFICER IN BRASS AND IRON.

**artificer - 1 a skillful maker of things;skilled craftsman 2 a person who devises;inventor
(and Tubalcain was an instructor to EVERY ARTIFICER, meaning he taught all of them)

**artifice - artist, master of a trade

and "artifice" is where we get the word "artificial"

*** artificial - 1 made by human work or art,not by nature; not natural
2 made in imitation of or as a substitute for something
natural; simulated

* notice the very last verses concerning Cain and his descedents also has to do with Lamech proclaiming to both of his wives that he is killed what appears to be two people(for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.) and for some reason if Cain was protected from vengeance 7 fold according to his reasoning he should be protected seventy and seven fold.(Point being here we also have violence and murder being recorded.)


Now go back to Genesis 6 as it is translated properly from the Hebrew:

1. When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,
2. the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
3. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

*** If the sons of GOD were Seth and his descendants why would the previous chapter of Genesis (chapter 5) list the descendants of Adam the way that it does and as the descendants of Adam(man). And why in ch.5 say that each one begat sons and daughters as though they are the same, and then the next chapter as though they were different (begat sons and daughters, sons of GOD & daughters of man)?

*** why would it proclaim of Seth and his descendants "then man began to call on the name of the LORD" and also be referring to them as "nephelim(the fallen)?

***notice it says they saw the daughters of man and took unto them wives (plural) according to their choosing.


*** perhaps it is a mystery because everyone has been looking at it backwards. Maybe where we need to look more closely is at Cain and where did he get all his ungodly attributes from. A tiller of the ground, was told the ground would not bring forth because it was cursed by his spilling his brothers blood.

Of course all the bible says is that Cain was a tiller of the ground and that he brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. Everyone assumes that means fruit from trees. What if it was gold, and other gems and stones that were beautiful that he had dug up while he was tilling(mining,digging) in the ground.
**Maybe that's why GOD rejected his offering - because he wasn't growing anything, but digging and tearing up the natural earth. It isn't as hard to accept as a possibility when we rememind ourselves that his children were the masters of brass and iron

brass- Brass is any alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties

***and Brass is a substitutional alloy. It is used for decoration for its bright gold-like appearance; for applications where low friction is required such as locks, gears, bearings, doorknobs, ammunition, and valves; for plumbing and electrical applications; and extensively in musical instruments such as horns and bells for its acoustic properties.

I apologize for the length of this but it is hard to cut short. Like I said it is just FOOD FOR THOUGHT -
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  #40  
Old 07-25-2010, 01:04 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: The sons of God and the daughters of men

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Angels around God's throne are called "beasts" and have "beastlike" appearances and qualities to them.
Who said cherubims were angels? These four beasts proclaim the blood redeemed them from all nations in Rev 5:9-10. I do not believe angels are cherubims.

Quote:
Evil spirits are referred to as "hateful birds". But I digress on that one...

Consider this... I never said that angels could procreate. I said that the Scripture hints that angels can procreate when taking a physical form.
We need plain teaching to this effect, though, I think.

Quote:
If an angel can eat and wrestle...who's to say what else an angel can do when in physical form.
I always believed angels could take on physical form any time they wanted. It was [part of their creation purpose.

Quote:
And certainly if an angel's physical form is fully functional...God would forbid interbreeding and sinful acts. That's a given rather they can reproduce or not.

I think the ancients understood a lot more about the spirit world that contradict some of our spit and polished Neoplatonic notions.

Question...

If an angel took a physical form of a man...would that form be fully functional? Would that angel in human form have all the anatomy of a human male? Would it be functional? The ancients apparently believed the answer to be... yes.
I think that is too much assumption in light of the plain statement that angels are not given in marriage, and I would think that statement took into consideration the many times in the past when angels appeared.
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