Why I Believe in Eternal Security

[Michael The Disciple]

What did John mean?

19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:19

What did Peter mean?

10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 2 Peter 2:10

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Well I think we would all agree this means "cast into hell", but why? Because their names are NOT written in the book of life....does it not make sense that in order to be blotted OUT of the book of life your name had to be there to begin with?

Also this promise is made with a condition...those that overcome
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

To overcome means to be born again. This verse actually teaches eternal security since it teaches that all those who are born again will not have their names blotted out of the book of life.

There are those whose names are written in the book of life, those who's names are blotted out and those that are just not in there

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God removes his part FROM the book of life and FROM the Holy city...someone here has a part in it and is taken OUT of it

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

After final judgement, God will establish a heavenly Jeruselem on earth and those who are cast into hell on judgement day (the unregenerate) have their name taken out of that holy city when they are cast into hell. In that sense, they are blotted out of the book of life. However, we cannot overlook the fact that all those who are born again will not have their name blotted out of the book of life.

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the way to come,
6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

It appears to me that this says that a Holy Ghost filled believer can fall away and lose their salvation. I think that the point of no return is different for everyone. For some it might be one sin and they never come back, and others sin-repent-sin repent ....etc. until they go so deep they can't repent for some reason. My advice is don't see how low you can go.

ARPH

If you want to argue that Hebrews 6 is refering to those who lost their salvation, then after someone falls away, they can never get their salvation back since the passage says "it is impossible to renew them unto repentance." The only other possible way to explain this passage is that it is impossible to renew those to repentance who fell away and went to hell since they were not elect.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I never said they were saved. I am saying they NEVER were saved.

Well, at least in this instance, you do agree with my "they were never saved in the first place" explanation.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

He is talking about someone that supposedly converts that NEVER stops practicing sin...not someone that converts, stops practicing sin but LATER on backslides and begins practicing sin again. The later was saved but at some point if they don't repent could lose their salvation. The former was never saved to begin with

Please show me from the context where it it says what you say it says. Moreover, even if this is true, then all those who supposedly got saved, and then fell away real soon after their supposed conversion were never saved in the first place. Is this what you believe?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If the first one was invalid don't you see how confusing it will be to that person to tell them to do what they did before? Get my point? You have someone that really thought they had faith, LIVED for God for years...was baptized, was filled and after a few years began practicing sin again. You tell them, "you were never really saved"...."you were never really filled with the Spirit", how can you expect them then to do exactly what they did before and be saved THIS time if they were not last time?

Maybe God would grant them repentance this time. Also, it is important to note that Jesus said false prophets would come to use in sheeps clothing, meaning that they would have the appearence of sheep.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No, they ARE living a righteous life. Even Cornelius lived a righteous life without having faith in Jesus and being baptized.

Cornelius was in the in-between stage between being lost and being saved.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Then there are a LOT of fake Christians who think they are saved, speak in tongues, baptized in Jesus name and live holy, except for maybe a brief period of time where they committed sin...they suddenly were never really saved to begin with....

As I said above, Jesus told us that false prophets would come to us in sheeps clothing. There are people out there that at first glance, show all the signs of someone who is saved, but they are not saved. Moreover, If someone sins just for a brief period of time, that does not necessarily mean that they are lost.

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

With your belief it would not matter

If I did not think that it mattered what I did after my conversion experience, I would not even have started this thread.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

To overcome means to be born again. This verse actually teaches eternal security since it teaches that all those who are born again will not have their names blotted out of the book of life.

There are those whose names are written in the book of life, those who's names are blotted out and those that are just not in there

I don't think so. See this is written to those that were already born again and contained warnings about being removed from the book of life IF they overcome

Rev 3:2 Wake up then, and strengthen what remains that was about to die, because I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.
Rev 3:3 Therefore, remember what you received and heard, and obey it, and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come against you.
Rev 3:4 But you have a few individuals in Sardis who have not stained their clothes, and they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be dressed like them in white clothing, and I will never erase his name from the book of life, but will declare his name before my Father and before his angels.

This is clear...this is to the Church in Sardis, not to sinners. And to that church he warns to strengthen what is about to die...to wake up. that there are only a few individuals (of the church) that have not stained their clothes. Then he points out the one that conquers or overcomes will be dressed in white and will never have his name erased from the book of life..

If your argument here is true this would mean EVERYONES name is already written in the book of life and if they don't get born again it is erased. That is contrary to what we are told that because we are saved HE writes our names in the lambs book of life

After final judgement, God will establish a heavenly Jeruselem on earth and those who are cast into hell on judgement day (the unregenerate) have their name taken out of that holy city when they are cast into hell. In that sense, they are blotted out of the book of life. However, we cannot overlook the fact that all those who are born again will not have their name blotted out of the book of life.

How can people who were never saved have their names taken out of that holy city? Do you know that Holy City is described as a bride for the lamb? How can their names be there if they were never saved?

Those who overcome will not have their names blotted out

Rev 2:4 But I have this against you: You have departed from your first love!
Rev 2:5 Therefore, remember from what high state you have fallen and repent! Do the deeds you did at the first; if not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place — that is, if you do not repent.
Rev 2:6 But you do have this going for you: You hate what the Nicolaitans practice — practices I also hate.
Rev 2:7 The one who has an ear had better hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers, I will permit him to eat from the tree of life that is in the paradise of God.'

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

Please show me from the context where it it says what you say it says. Moreover, even if this is true, then all those who supposedly got saved, and then fell away real soon after their supposed conversion were never saved in the first place. Is this what you believe?

Well I asked you first before to show me where this is speaking of those that later fall away. Can you? This is my point. No, in this context this is not those that soon after conversion fell away. This is those that never ceased to practice sin. See you view this as referring to those that some time after conversion start practicing sin again and I dont think you can prove that

Maybe God would grant them repentance this time. Also, it is important to note that Jesus said false prophets would come to use in sheeps clothing, meaning that they would have the appearence of sheep.

Jesus said you would KNOW them by their fruits though....False prophets are not individual christians who later on fall away. They are people that lead others into damnation.

Cornelius was in the in-between stage between being lost and being saved.

That does not negate the fact that one can live a righteous life and not be baptized or filled with the Spirit

As I said above, Jesus told us that false prophets would come to us in sheeps clothing. There are people out there that at first glance, show all the signs of someone who is saved, but they are not saved. Moreover, If someone sins just for a brief period of time, that does not necessarily mean that they are lost.

A false prophet is not an individual that thinks they are saved only to discover they never were saved. A false prophet is someone that leads others astray often knowing they wolves in sheeps clothing. They are pretending.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

If I did not think that it mattered what I did after my conversion experience, I would not even have started this thread.

That contradicts your belief.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

If I did not think that it mattered what I did after my conversion experience, I would not even have started this thread.

When you take salvation off the list of possible outcomes involving our choices in the days in this life, what are you left with?

I confidently read the scriptures and see them as pointing/guiding me to a destination that is ahead. We are pilgrims who need to continue, enduring unto the end.

Eternal Security seems to have its best occassion for consideration in the "faith only" viewholder; God made a way, so what can I do? If there is nothing I CAN DO...there certainly is nothing I CAN NOT DO!

Abraham was justified by what he did in response to being instructed by God...he offering Issac.

Any one of us are capable of choosing to depart from God's hand of protection and provision and walk away, returning to the wallow where we were found.

Religous Nut, if you have ever seen one person leave/depart from this faith and return to a life of serving the temporal lusts of this life, you would have to declare them "never having actually been saved". To do so, you are tossing out whatever preceived benefit there is to this doctrinal position. A person has no more security with this doctrinal view if it is possible to fall away a some later time (using the ...they must have never really been saved special clause).

regards,
tbpew

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

If you want to argue that Hebrews 6 is refering to those who lost their salvation, then after someone falls away, they can never get their salvation back since the passage says "it is impossible to renew them unto repentance." The only other possible way to explain this passage is that it is impossible to renew those to repentance who fell away and went to hell since they were not elect.

I do believe your name should be more "Nut" than 'Religious"