What if our Appeal is Appalling?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't care for the "total abandon" style of church. If everyone is worshiping, really reaching out but not running around in circles or doing a pentecostal jig that's enough. Someone getting emotionally stirred from time to time is ok, but I don't think anything beyond raised hands and uplifted voices ought to be characterized as normal or regular "Pentecostal worship"

I would like to agree, but, this would depend on the church and what the expectations are for one "really" worshiping.

If it's not the norm, is there still a desire and press toward that end?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Yes, that's what I meant by "Pentecostal Style".

"Screamin' guitars" was an exaggeration. It was an extreme way of saying "guitar-driven" music. As far as jeans go, I've never met a non-Christian who was turned off by casual dress. Personally, I wear jeans almost every Sunday. They're my favorite and they're comfortable and it's never been a problem for non-Christians. Christians? I better not comment!

No, I did not mean that anyone who retains a church look and sound is legalistic. I can see how I gave that impression. Robert Schuller is a prime example of this. The Crystal Cathedral is VERY traditional. Robes, pipe organ, choirs holding sheet music, etc. But they're anything BUT tradition, philosophically. That are not at all the same ole same ole.

My point was, that if people think they can do rock n' roll and wear jeans, and automatically remedy the things that have driven away non-Christians, they're wrong. A surface change isn't enough. It must be a heart change.

Well I am defining "Christian" loosely, (as in 90% of Americans are Christian) but I think the vast majority would not be kewl with Sun Morn worship the way you describe, rockin out, jeans, headbangin et al.

But no matter the actual numbers, what are you doing to accommodate those who can't stomach your style, or at minimum find it over the top? What about those who may prefer A ccapella or rather enjoy the traditional church structure?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Well I am defining "Christian" loosely, (as in 90% of Americans are Christian) but I think the vast majority would not be kewl with Sun Morn worship the way you describe, rockin out, jeans, headbangin et al.

But no matter the actual numbers, what are you doing to accommodate those who can't stomach your style, or at minimum find it over the top? What about those who may prefer A ccapella or rather enjoy the traditional church structure?

I think you might be surprised about what people would like on a Sunday morning. I'll just grab five churches off the top of my head.

Saddleback
Mosaic
Newspring
Elevation
Northpoint

None of these churches have pastors or staff who have worn anything but jeans to every Sunday service in the last 25 years. These 5 churches combined serve about 110,000. And they all have been incredibly successful in reaching unchurched people. I'm not against suits & ties. Not for me. But just as I don't insist that suits & ties don't work, others should insist that jean don't work. The track record is...they do. It's not a fashion statement. It's a statement of comfort, it's a statement of not becoming something different than you normally are, it's a statement of authenticity, and it's a statement that "we welcome anyone."

I don't think jeans are the only way to reach people. But I also don't think they should be eliminated.


Style....I've never been a fan of doing different services with different styles. I'm not against it, but it just has a funny feel to it, like I'm being inauthentic. Again, I'm not against it...just not my cup o' tea. The last time I was at Saddleback, they had 11 different services going with every style of music you could imagine. That's great, but I get exhausted just thinking about doing that many different things!

I prefer the culturally relevant presentation of Jesus on a weekly basis in an authentic way that people can connect to. The other four churches I listed, and I could add Willow Creek, Gateway, and others to the list, present one service done one way.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

...what are you doing to accommodate those who can't stomach your style, or at minimum find it over the top? ...

Some possible answers (TIC and not referring to anyone specifically):

Telling them they'd scream their lungs out at a football game, and then asking them if they really love football more than God... (while they sit and wonder when you ever saw them at a football game, or what gave them an impression that this was "everyone's" behavior at such a place...)

Ignoring preferences of style and taste, because everyone should agree with mine, of course

Stating that other churches in the area are dead but that mine is alive

Mimicking traditional songs or styles of worship in a way that devalues their worth

Singing a style of song and letting my members snicker or groan through it (or even praising them for walking out on it), because they feel they are above that (slow, old, traditional, country, pop, rock) style.

Telling people who express discomfort that if they are dead they can just go hang with the dead people at one of the other churches in town.

Showing them all the awards the choir won and giving out copies of our latest CDs-they'll get used to our ways once they pray through...


What we should do:
Connect visitors (or saints) less comfortable with our style to another OP church in the area that might be more suitable to them

Have different styles available in various services, and combine styles in others. For instance, sing hymns Sunday morning, newer choruses on youth night.

Seek God's direction for a service. And then let Him lead. It is His service, isn't it?

Train leaders. If a song isn't working, don't sing it 50 more times to "push through", just try something different. Feel after God. If after 5 minutes (or some other specified amount of time) nothing is happening in song service, teach them it is OK to sit down and move on to the next part of service. God may want to move in prayer or minister through testimonies that night. It doesn't mean you have failed if your song (or prayer or testimony or whatever) didn't get everyone bouncing off the walls. God may have used it to prepare people for what He wants to do in the next order of service, though. So if it isn't working, sit down!

USE EVERYONE (who is qualified). Don't prefer one or two people to lead songs and wear them out by using them every service, if there are others who are also qualified and willing. Don't do the same thing that worked last service, just because it worked last service. God may have a different plan for this service, after all.

[Hoovie]

MoMary that was fabulous! I LOL on some of that!

I also think you are right on with the serious comments.

I wish we could at least stop the denigration of other churches and styles - especially from the pulpit.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I would submit that today the traditional Pentecostal Style is appealing to some, but appalling to many.

So should we change our "style" to appeal to many?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Cindy

So should we change our "style" to appeal to many?

I think it's a valid question. Obviously we cannot change anything of substance - the doctrine of Christ, and the message of the cross etc.

But if we by tradition and style are standing in the way some hearing or receiving the gospel, we should do anything we can to remedy it and reach a broader audience.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I think it's a valid question. Obviously we cannot change anything of substance - the doctrine of Christ, and the message of the cross etc.

But if we by tradition and style are standing in the way some hearing or receiving the gospel, we should do anything we can to remedy it and reach a broader audience.

I find I like the new "style" in the church I attend. And the reaching out to our community in diverse ways.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Cindy

So should we change our "style" to appeal to many?

Yes, yes, yes!!!!


Read the story of J. Hudson Taylor and his first year failure in reaching the Chinese and the next 50 years in which he reached 175,000 and the millions in the underground church today. He said, "Let us in everything unsinful become like the Chinese."

[faithinthefire]

Originally Posted by Cindy

So should we change our "style" to appeal to many?

Perhaps its not a matter of changing our styles, so much as a matter of some changing their attitudes toward each other. I live in an area that has at least 9 OP churches in a 60 mile radius. None fellowship each other. At least several claim none of the others has it right, some very adamantly. They vary in range from (appx) 10-600. There are differences in standards, differences in some areas of doctrine (ie one step, three step), and differences in worship style. But all preach the same message of repentance, baptism in Jesus' name, and infilling of the Holy Ghost.

If a person is uncomfortable in one of these churches, they are never referred to another that might have a style of leadership, type of programs, or whatever that might be more comfortable to them. They are expected to assimilate to the group they are currently in, and condemned if they don't or can't.

There are probably as many 'backsliders' in my city as there are saints, at least. I can't help but wonder how many of these would be in an OP church if we all weren't so afraid of our differences.